What To Do To Help Her Now

[ruthjones]

As I posted earlier, patches gave birth to a single stillborn little boy , adorable, she did all the right things but he was beyond all help from patches, us and the vet. As such, what is the best thing to do for her now, she is so sad, she tried for so long to get the little pup to breathe but it just want meant to be. (he was perfectly formed, believe he may have had difficulties during the birth.

is it morbid of me to take photos of him?

From what I can gather, I dont need to submit any paperwork to Dogs Qld, can anyone confirm that.

There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions on what the best thing to do now is, some things suggest desexing in case the fault lies with her, I am reluctant as at the end of the day, it is one dead puppy, patches still cleared the membranes and took care of the umbilical cord herself, is protective of puppy but accepted our assistance (not that it was of any use)

do i let her keep the puppy or take it away, she seems to want to be with it but it is heartbreaking watching her vain attempts to rouse him.

other advise has been to breed her again as quickly as possible, but at the moment i am completely lost with what to do, i am hesitant as i do not want to do anything that could cause future issues for patches

my husband, kids, and of course myself are understandably very sad,

who knew something you had never set eyes on could become so devastating to lose without ever having it

Best wishes to all

Ruth

[WreckitWhippet]

Take the puppy away, clean up the whelping area, pack everything away and pretend that nothing has happened. Take her for walks, spend time with her, as you would normally do. Bitches will get over it in their own time.

If you are going to try again, do it with the help of a repro specialist

[ish]

Take the puppy away, clean up the whelping area, pack everything away and pretend that nothing has happened. Take her for walks, spend time with her, as you would normally do. Bitches will get over it in their own time.

Let her watch you pack everything away too. Earlier in the year my bitch lost her singleton pup at 4 days old and was very distressed. I shut the door where the whelping set up was and didn't let her in - I needed a couple of days before I was ready to pack it all up too. She took every opportunity to try to get into the room. Once she thoroughly explored the room and watched me put everything away, she turned the corner and got better and better

[Sandra777]

Sorry things haven't turned out well, all part of the ups and downs of dog breeding unfortunately

No it's not morbid of you to take photographs. It's not something I would do but if it makes you feel better then go for it.

Me, I would leave the dead pup with her for a little while and monitor what she does. She will either loose interest and push is away or she will try to tidy up her nest and eat the body. Both are perfectly natural things for her to do. When she pushes it away you can swap it for a soft toy (or even a pair of rolled up socks) for the moment.

If you want to, you could phone around the local vets and make it know you have a potential foster mother available, but for me with a maiden bitch I would not be willing to risk other people's puppies just in case she turns out not to accept them or is a poor mother (both things you can't tell from her current behaviour). I would give the stuffed toy or rolled up socks and leave her alone in her whelping box until this evening, then get her out for a pee and poop and a little walk, then give her a VERY small dinner.

Old timers maintained extra fat slowed milk production, but whether this has any basis in truth I can't say - but high quality puppy food and lean protein will definitely boost milk production so avoid giving her "all the good stuff" and give her a small amount of basic food (unless you have a lead on getting her some fosters pups of course!)

If you decide not to get her foster pups, give her a day or two of quiet and peace with her substitute puppy/socks. Give her small amounts of food at her normal meal times, get her out of the box regularly for pee breaks and a small walk. Keep the other dog away.

Almost certainly within 48 hours she will have done her grieving and be ready to get on with life. Check her regularly as she may decide to produce gallons of milk and this can cause all sorts of problems, but usually without pups suckling and without a lot of good tucker nature takes it's course.

As for spaying her, well that's up to you. You can't assume it's her "fault" at all and if she is a good example of the breed and part of a long term breeding programme, then there is no good reason to make a rash decision right now. (Not that you would spay her right now of course!)

I had a number of bitches conceive singletons. One has since had a litter of 5, another a litter of 4. One I forgot to mention in the last thread had a litter of NINE (breed average is 4) then conceived a singleton on her second (and last) litter.

I have also had a bitch that conceived a singleton twice, so it is possible she will only ever have one pup at a time, but nothing is set in stone.

For now - IMO she should be allowed about 48 hours to grieve, recover physically and get her hormones and instincts under control. After that you can start to make it less comfortable for her to stay in her nest. Replace all the blankets and everything that might smell of the birth/her pup (leave her toy/socks) make her get out of bed to eat and drink, take her for small walks (around the yard first) on a leash, make her get out of her nest even for a pat. Let the other dog make noise and gets lots of fussing close to where she is (separated by a gate or playpen at first in case she reacts badly), basically get her out of her nesting mode and back in to her normal life mode.

ETA: no you don't need to do anything for Dogs Queensland and no IMO you don't have to breed her straight away either.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Sandra777

[Miranda]

Take the puppy away and clean everything up, she should get over it in 48 hours. Cutting her food right down can help. I wouldn't have her desexed, the next litter will probably be perfectly normal, have progesterone tests done so you can be sure she's mated at the right time.

Don't dwell on it, unfortunately these things happen when you breed dogs.

[ruthjones]

I'm trying to stay positive, the way it happenned it very sad, being a singleton in a maider litter, but reality is that it is literally only one puppy, there are no obvious deformities, Patches instincts seem to be exactly right regarding her bahaviours towards the puppy after its birth, and regarding being protective of it towards everything until she establishes that there is no danger to pup.

He is a gorgeous blue roan with a patch shaped like a love heart on his back.

Of course hubby and I keep playing the what if game, but at the end of the day, she was running a textbook pregnancy and labour, and evenn looking back, there are no events or signs of anything being wrong, I was fairly certain I could feel puppy movements late last night, labour didn't seem to be istressing patches at all, ao stage did she appear to be pushing terribly hard or overly fast, nothing indicate anything was stuck at any point. In reality it seems like it could have been a one off occurrence, but without subsequent pups in the litter, there is nothing to distract her from the lost pup. I tried removing the puppy from her, but she actually went and took it back to the whelping box, not showing any signs or discarding it (was hoping she would do this herself at some point) but keeps trying to lick its mouth and nether regions (aka, attempting to stimulate i think)

i'm just anxious regarding if she will come back into heat instantly because it was lost and therefore lose too much conditioning, or whether her body will still hold off for a reasonable time until a litter would be safe, even the vet isnt sure!

Ruth

[Sandra777]

She won't come back in to season any earlier. Dogs don't do it that way.

If you want to remove the puppy do so. Don't allow her to take it back, put it somewhere she can't get it. Me, I would let her keep it until she decides for herself

[SparkyTansy]

Very Sorry to read about the lost puppy RJ... it can be so difficult...

I had a puppy born in my first litter - fully formed, normal birth. I too played the "what if" game with myself but accepted it all rather quickly given the response from the bitch (which is different, because she had more than one pup she lost interest very quickly in the dead one).

[mini girl]

So sorry to hear of your loss it is just heart breaking - I know how you feel - I lost my whole litter born too early only 51 days - my girl grieved for 3 weeks - it tore my heart out but slowly she came back to her normal self and when she brought a stick in and chewed it up on the lounge I was so happy as at last she seemed to have returned to her normal naughty self.

My girl is 42 days now and I have her under the care of Phil Thomas a reproduction vet at Chermside - such a wonderful man - I have another appointment in the morning with him so hoping all will be well this time.

I also had one pup in a litter of 6 born dead - couldn't revive her at all - we really tried but the vet thought she was probably dead before birth - it took a long time for her to be born - its so sad when it happens and you ask yourself why so many times but I guess at the end of the day its just what can happen when we choose to breed our dogs.

I hope one day she will be able to have a nice litter not only for you but for her - I know I want my girl to have her pups so much - for the short time she had them she showed how wonderful she would be as a mother.

It probably helps a little to know so many are thinking of you and feeling your sorrow.

[persephone]

How sad.

leave it with her tonight .. her raging hormones need an outlet.

Don't feed her much .. leave her be - don't fuss around her now at all.Just be matter of fact.The more upset/clingy YOU are - the more she will think that something is very wrong...Just let her realise that puppy is not going to suckle/move .. she will ... eventually . Then, maybe in the morning .. when she is NOT looking .. put gloves on .. take puppy, and place in a couplle of layers of plastic bag .. and go bury it well away from your house.. take it to the vets for disposal... or maybe wrap it well and use your bin...if bin day is in a day or so.

do NOT leave any scent of it around you or the house/yard.

let her watch you cleaning up - thoroughly dispose of all bedding etc ... and then just treat her as normal ... lots of exercise and a bit of a diet to help get rid of the milk .. and lots of bones to chew/fun things. It won't be an instant fits - she is so full of mothering hormones/instinct .. but without any stimuli, it will ease ...

[Rysup]

My Daisy had a singleton who died after 12 hours of trying to survive. She was distraught beyond words, and I thought leaving her in the house would be best, but in the end, it was much better to pack it all up and get back to normal as soon as possible.

[**Super_Dogs**]

I am so sorry for you and Patches.

I have not been through your experience but I would like to say that you should try not to play over "what ifs" and as it sounds like there was nothing you could do.

[EISHUND]

Sorry for your loss.

I'd be taking the pup away & packing everything up. Allowing her to keep the dead pup 'until she is ready' is just prolonging the whole traumatic ordeal for her.

[TrinaJ]

So sorry for your loss, how heartbreaking for you, your family and most importantly, Patches.

I have no advice to give as luckily I have not been in that situation.

My thoughts a re with you

[ruthjones]

We have decided to push her back into her normal self, all puppy related items are gone from the house, call me a sentimental fool, but the puppy itself is going to be cremated so it can stay with us in a different form (my mother and our previous dogs have also been cremated, we lost my mother to cancer when i was 15, our previous dog Rex was lost to tick paralysis in NSW, and my husband's child hood dog Jack died from old age)it also helps my oldest son in particular who was so looking forward to puppies. We have decided the puppy will be named, even though not required by regulations, said pup shall be called Destiny's child

I walked Patches right through the entire house to show her that there is no puppy here, she has no interest in a puppy substitute such as a toy etc. I am sure she is grieving, she is crying so pitifully my heart breaks for her again every time.

we have made his entry on the rainbow bridge page, a copy of which is below

To our tiny little boy lost before your time began

I am so sorry that you never had the chance to walk by our side

But although you never stepped foot on the ground, your pawprints will be forever in our hearts

Whilst your mummy may have thrown us an early curve ball

think not for one moment that you were not wanted

On the morning Patches laboured over your birth

An angel opened my brand new breeder's record book and recorded just one line

26 September, 2011, 8 am, blue roan male, Destiny's child, too perfect for this earth

The hearts on your coat will forever remind you that you took a piece of our heart with you

Forever loved by your canine family

Mummy Tilltlilly kistnpatched (Patches)

Daddy Sagapore PullUpYourSocks (Socks)

and your human family

mummy Ruth (me)

Daddy Rob

and your human siblings Laura, Dan, Ryan and Nick

may you bless all of us and any future puppy siblings with all of your love

I am sure there are many at the Rainbow Bridge to look after you for now.

Ruth

we have consulted with a vet who specialises in reproduction, his opinion was that desexing was not something to be contemplated as at the end of the day, as devastating as it is, it is one puppy, and his opinion was that the odds are against a singleton in a maiden litter anyway, which in a perverse manner is reassuring, another consideration was that the circumstances didn't really call for an autopsy which could give inconclusive results anyway, his suggestion was that if Patches makes an acceptable recovery to breed her again in her next season as a singleton litter is theoretically less taxing on a bitch, and since her body won't be further depleted by feedings etc, also the positive reactions that Patches had towards the puppy, i.e. her basic instincts are correct and not of concern (I guess meaning she tried to stimulate the pup and that she wasn't trying to kill it or ignore it's birth) interestingly he was against a puppy substitute as his theory is that it would encourage her maternal hormones and may cause her to continue to produce milk etc, even without a pup feeding which then can result in mastitis etc.

I discussed progesterone testing but he seemed to feel that as both bitch and dog are ours and co-habitate (etc when separated to prevent undesired litters, such as on her first heat cycle and in the future to rest her between litters) that the only gain would be knowledge of an exact ovulation date, which isnt critical in most litters anyway.

We have decided to try and follow this advice (particularly after spending quite a lot of money for this opinion)

although it does seem almost cruel to be planning another litter after losing her pupp just yesterday.

we have also resolved to have several emergency vet clinics ready next litter, as when we called this time to make sure patches was ok (i.e. nothing retained etc) we were told the vet will be there when they can, but they are already out on an emergency, so want to make sure that we have options next time in case those circumstances could make a difference (this time around it would have been no help anyway, the attending vet was of the opinion that the pup was dead before it entered the birth canal or very shortly upon so entering, there were no indications of disfigurement due to sizing problems or being stuck as such)

Ruth

[dancinbcs]

I would suggest you try a different dog next time from different lines. Then if she has a normal litter use your own dog the next year. Some matings just don't click and double up on fatal genes that make the puppies not viable.

One of my stud dogs sired a singleton that survived and the following season the same mating produced a litter of 6. With the first one the bitch had an erratic and short season and was only able to be mated for a couple of hours before going out. The next season was normal and produced a normal litter. If the singleton had been born dead though I probably would have sent them to another stud dog to try the next time.

[angelsun]

It was a singleton pup that didn't make it....join the club to many of us. It was a maiden litter that didn't go well..but you have the bitch...many of us are not that lucky.

Planning to the next mating isn't cruel, it's life..either realize that or find another hobby to be honest. Thickening up the skin is required as well. Spend money if you want over a repro specialist but the bottom line is, your bitch was bred, she carried without drama, she whelped without stress..the pup didn't survive....it was formed with hair, and all its parts. That's breeding for you!

Yes, this sounds short, crisp and probably not very nice, but that's what it is...clean up, move on...both humans and doggie mother. The more you fret about this, the more insane you will be the next time you go to do this.

Breeding in my opinion, is not for the faint of heart...it's a series of very highs and very lows, and you have to be able to level it out so neither peaks or falls so badly that you lose your sanity over it.

You have your bitch who is healthy. She can be bred again if you choose to do that. You are very fortunate to have that opportunity. Take it and move on.