minyvlz Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 My Westie will bark ferociously at young children, no biting or anything, just barking non-stop at them. How do I correct this? He's not aggressive but when he scares little girls and makes them cry, I am at a loss as to what to do. He's not really a puppy anymore as he just turned one. The kids aren't approaching him, just passing by. I don't have any children in my household so he hasn't grown up/socialised much with them. I'm wondering how to socialise him with kids if he's so fierce towards them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terujo Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) Could you be outside with him and have him on a lead and when they pass by ( maybe school times?) and check him when he goes to look at them? or call him away and give him a treat when he comes away and focuses back on you? Play with him when they are going past so having them go past is not a bad thing. eta past not fast Edited September 23, 2011 by Terujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 May I recommend getting yourself an appointment with a recommended trainer/behaviourist who can guide you through this. it is IMPORTANT .. there are a lot of years to go through yet, so socialising needs to be done properly If you ask on here, some one will give you a name to contact, I'm sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilaryo Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Is he food driven? As long as it's all bark and no bite I would get children to give him treats. Maybe a couple of neighbours kids can help out and make it a regular thing. He is probably scared of them due to their sudden movements and noise. As Persephone has suggested, a behaviourist may be the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terujo Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't ever get children to feed the dog. If the child gets a fright and pulls their hand away from the dog then it could get nasty. The dog may think that the child is taking away the food. Don't use kids as guinea pigs. You be there to make the dog think that having children pass by can be a pleasant experience. If you be there to call the dog away and lavish attention and give treats to him when he does turn his attention from them to you, then he will associate them passing by as a positive experience. He doesn't need to have a relationship with them. He just has to see them as non threatening and that good things can happen while they are around. It doesn't have to be WITH them that the good things happen though. By taking his focus off them, this will then become a non-issue in time and them passing by will be nothing important to him. I've seen this happen with a dog that hated a certain dog that went past its house. All of the above was done and now the dog can go past, the other dog will bark or watch but will come away from the fence immediately when called by its owner :-) ETA- initially, have your dog on a leash so that when you call it to you to play and treat you check it so that it cant get away from you if it tries. Edited September 23, 2011 by Terujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) If your dog is clicker trained, I think a bit of Lesley McDevitt's LAT (Look At That) would be useful. It's not an overnight fix but it is a good one for reactive dogs. A bit long & lengthy to explain here, but a lot has been talked about it on the training thread. Or if you google it, you may find out more. Do you currently play any clicker games with your dog?? Edited September 24, 2011 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 contact Craig A Murray www.dogschool.com.au when it comes to dogs and children consult a professional, never use someone elses children in case you are reinforcing the wrong behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 In the meantime, don't let kids feed him. If he's barking at them, chances are he doesn't actually want them close to him. Bringing them close when he's reacting to them has a strong possibility of making it worse. It sounds like he doesn't know what to do about kids, so he barks at them. Leslie McDevitt's LAT game is great for this, as long as you can get in before he starts barking. You can use it to teach him that his job is to notice kids and tell you he's noticed them by looking at them QUIETLY. Get in fast before he decides to bark, tell him he's a good boy, or click, or whatever, and when he turns back to you, give him his treat. Then repeat until he's wanting to spend more time looking at you then the kid. If you want him to get closer, or there's a reason why he needs to, you can move a step or two forwards and start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Definately consult a behaviourist so they can look at his body language and his reaction ... it may not be "hate" but fear or even over excitement. I know my boy barks and lunges when he is over-excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Nekhbet - if this is a socialisation issue, which I think it is, then Craig A Murray might not be a good choice. My dogs went for obedience under one of their trainers and I was told that socialisation ended at 4 months. Dogs after 4 months cannot be helped/no need for socialisation after that was what I was told. Trainers wise, I contacted Jane Harper but she was too far for either of us to travel. Does anyone have any recommendations for trainers on the Gold Coast? Sheena & Corvus - Thanks, I will look at using LAT. Terujo & Tilly - He doesn't lunge or jump on them, just barks fiercely at them. My other dog loves children so I don't know why he's like that. Fear, perhaps? Thanks for the tips Terujo, I will make sure he gets a treat every time we see children. Persephone - Thanks, I'm not sure why I haven't noticed it before though... I'm sure we've seen children on our daily walks. Last night we were having dinner so we tied the dogs to a pillar nearby and he started barking loudly whenever any children walked past. On previous occasions I recall sometimes he did bark at them, but other times when I'm right next to him he won't react at all to children. If he really only barks at children when I'm not with him, what can I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Nekhbet - if this is a socialisation issue, which I think it is, then Craig A Murray might not be a good choice. My dogs went for obedience under one of their trainers and I was told that socialisation ended at 4 months. Dogs after 4 months cannot be helped/no need for socialisation after that was what I was told. Trainers wise, I contacted Jane Harper but she was too far for either of us to travel. Does anyone have any recommendations for trainers on the Gold Coast? Sheena & Corvus - Thanks, I will look at using LAT. Terujo & Tilly - He doesn't lunge or jump on them, just barks fiercely at them. My other dog loves children so I don't know why he's like that. Fear, perhaps? Thanks for the tips Terujo, I will make sure he gets a treat every time we see children. Persephone - Thanks, I'm not sure why I haven't noticed it before though... I'm sure we've seen children on our daily walks. Last night we were having dinner so we tied the dogs to a pillar nearby and he started barking loudly whenever any children walked past. On previous occasions I recall sometimes he did bark at them, but other times when I'm right next to him he won't react at all to children. If he really only barks at children when I'm not with him, what can I do? I would really try the LAT...not a quick fix, but I have my dog on it ATM because she is reactive to motion (she's a border collie) & SWF's & I am over the top with joy the way she has improved. It also teaches your dog how to relax & take deep breaths. I have just bought Leslie's book & DVD "Control Unleashed" and am waiting impatiently for it to arrive Can't wait to see what else she has to offer with helping my girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Nekhbet - if this is a socialisation issue, which I think it is, then Craig A Murray might not be a good choice. My dogs went for obedience under one of their trainers and I was told that socialisation ended at 4 months. Dogs after 4 months cannot be helped/no need for socialisation after that was what I was told. Trainers wise, I contacted Jane Harper but she was too far for either of us to travel. Does anyone have any recommendations for trainers on the Gold Coast? Sheena & Corvus - Thanks, I will look at using LAT. Terujo & Tilly - He doesn't lunge or jump on them, just barks fiercely at them. My other dog loves children so I don't know why he's like that. Fear, perhaps? Thanks for the tips Terujo, I will make sure he gets a treat every time we see children. Persephone - Thanks, I'm not sure why I haven't noticed it before though... I'm sure we've seen children on our daily walks. Last night we were having dinner so we tied the dogs to a pillar nearby and he started barking loudly whenever any children walked past. On previous occasions I recall sometimes he did bark at them, but other times when I'm right next to him he won't react at all to children. If he really only barks at children when I'm not with him, what can I do? Are you sure you didn't misunderstand what Craig said/meant? The primary socialisation period DOES end around 16 weeks. There are measures you can do to improve the situation, but it would not be the same as if you were within this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 The way I understand it is that a pup's ideal period for socialisation does and around the 4 mth old mark. Puppies not socialised by then will have problems .. which CAN be addressed at a later date Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I would really try the LAT...not a quick fix, but I have my dog on it ATM because she is reactive to motion (she's a border collie) & SWF's & I am over the top with joy the way she has improved. It also teaches your dog how to relax & take deep breaths. I have just bought Leslie's book & DVD "Control Unleashed" and am waiting impatiently for it to arrive Can't wait to see what else she has to offer with helping my girl. It can be quick in some circumstances. I had Erik flipping out over children doing strange things a few months ago. Once I got my head around exactly how to use LAT, it only took a few weeks before he first offered a LAT when he saw some kids hitting the ground with a stick. No barking, no lunging, just looked calmly and looked back to me. When you've read it, go join the CU_Dogs Yahoo list. Leslie McDevitt answers questions along with some other very experienced trainers that have been using CU. It has really added depth to my understanding of the whole program. I want to buy the foundation dvds, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) That is what one of his trainers said, not him. Perhaps I understood wrongly, but from what she said, I got that further socialisation after 4 months is not necessary. Would that be correct I've always thought socialisation was an ongoing process, that it was crucial to socialise puppies at a young age but socialisation is supposed to be for life, or is it not really necessary? @persephone Thank you, that makes much more sense. ETA: I've seen mentions of LAT in the forums, but am unable to find a specific post (search didn't turn anything up), can anyone direct me to a thread? TIA. Edited September 24, 2011 by minyvlz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Maybe he meant that after 16 weeks it is no longer in the socialisation period, and he may call work with different environments and stimuli something different to socialisation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newfsie Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 contact Craig A Murray www.dogschool.com.au when it comes to dogs and children consult a professional, never use someone elses children in case you are reinforcing the wrong behaviour. I agree and Craig is good and knows what he is doing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelms Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) Although this most likely doesn't have anything to do with your westie specifically. But I've been around westies all my life and from what other westie owners have said and what ive experienced, the majority of westies do not do well with young kids as they're easily annoyed, ie: they don't put up with crap from kids. Most westies I know don't do well with kids yelling/running/screaming around them. My family has been involved with westies for almost 30 years now. Westies love playing rough with dogs and HUMAN adults and teens...but when it comes to younger kids around 5-10 years old they're too rough and a 5-10 year old doesn't really know the limits there they can easily push a westie too far. Where as someone who is older and more experienced with dogs will know how far they can play rough with a westie. Edited September 24, 2011 by Thelms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) Could you be outside with him and have him on a lead and when they pass by ( maybe school times?) and check him when he goes to look at them? or call him away and give him a treat when he comes away and focuses back on you? Play with him when they are going past so having them go past is not a bad thing. eta past not fast Punishing him for looking at kids will not fix the problem. That really is bad advice. If you were scared of something, would you be less scared if someone smacked you over the head every time you saw the thing you were scared of? You should contact a behaviourist/trainer. Fixing the problem should be reward based, such as rewarding for looking at kids, moving towards kids (without any threatening body language) and eventually interacting with kids. The only way you'd use corrections in this situation would be to interrupt the behaviour, so that the dog would then offer the correct behaviour and you would then reward for showing the correct behaviour towards kids. But preferably you should never get so close to kids that the dog would react and need to be corrected. Edited September 24, 2011 by fuzzy82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minyvlz Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Although this most likely doesn't have anything to do with your westie specifically. But I've been around westies all my life and from what other westie owners have said and what ive experienced, the majority of westies do not do well with young kids as they're easily annoyed, ie: they don't put up with crap from kids. Most westies I know don't do well with kids yelling/running/screaming around them. My family has been involved with westies for almost 30 years now. Westies love playing rough with dogs and HUMAN adults and teens...but when it comes to younger kids around 5-10 years old they're too rough and a 5-10 year old doesn't really know the limits there they can easily push a westie too far. Where as someone who is older and more experienced with dogs will know how far they can play rough with a westie. So if all Westies are as such, I should just avoid having children come near him? I see people not let others pat their dogs too, spending a few hundred dollars on a behaviourist for a problem that doesn't really matter to me is a little out of my budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now