Vet Comparsions - Am I Paying Too Much?

[Staranais]

Sorry but just had to point out that no, IV fluids are not a sham!

Yes, we would love to make it mandatory to put all animals on IV fluids, but if we do that, we have to bump up our spey/castration prices and then those people that can only JUST afford to get their pets done wouldnt be doing it. Some vets do put every single animal on fluids, and that is gold standard, but some clinics have to make that decision between making it mandatory or optional (even if optional, if blood pressure dropped too low we would put the animals health first and put them on IV fluids straight away.)

Yes, fluid bags may not cost that much, but what about the IV infusion pump, the giving set, the extension set, vetwrap, tape, catheter, the vet who went to uni for 5 yrs time to do it (or nurses), plus the nurses time to restrain.

Exactly. Many practices do not place an IV catheter when animals are induced, they are induced off the needle, so IV fluids require not just a fluid bag but catheter placement, as well as giving set, fluid pump, etc - it's not just the bag. The clinic will make a profit on surgical IV fluids (like with almost all drugs and services they sell), but they don't make a killing.

I would never have one of my own pets animals put under a GA for abdominal surgery or dental without an IV catheter, fluids and BP monitoring. I have done it for clients out in practice, and understand why cheaper options for many surgeries are (and have to be) offered. But no way would I risk it with my own pets.

ETA, just for interest, here are the approximate costs involved in pricing out IV fluids. Fluid bag, $5. IV catheter, $6. Giving set, $15. Extension set, $5. Vet nurse time to place and monitor, $5. Bandages and tape, a few $. Fluid pump and clipper replacement/maintenance, a few $. Total, about $40. Double that for profit (that's what the majority of businesses do) = $80.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Staranais

[Guest donatella]

I'm in Qld and got quoted $313 just for the spey for my 6 month old girl plus all the extras like IV fluids, collar, bloodwork etc, the end price was something in the 500's I think the IV fluid is a sham, I work a nurse in a hospital and it costs a few bucks for a bag of saline and they would have an IV line already patent when getting the anesthetic. I then talked to my mum who put me onto her vet and she's now getting done for $212 (all inclusive) and $41.50 to be microchipped. It pays to get recommendations as well, but if they are an outstanding vet then some people are happy to pay the extra $$'s.

I won't opt for a collar for my girl, I don't think its necessary, especially for the 10-14 days as the original vet quoted me, i've had 3 female dogs speyed growing up and the never had collars and handled the sutures just fine.

Sorry but just had to point out that no, IV fluids are not a sham!

Yes, we would love to make it mandatory to put all animals on IV fluids, but if we do that, we have to bump up our spey/castration prices and then those people that can only JUST afford to get their pets done wouldnt be doing it. Some vets do put every single animal on fluids, and that is gold standard, but some clinics have to make that decision between making it mandatory or optional (even if optional, if blood pressure dropped too low we would put the animals health first and put them on IV fluids straight away.)

Yes, fluid bags may not cost that much, but what about the IV infusion pump, the giving set, the extension set, vetwrap, tape, catheter, the vet who went to uni for 5 yrs time to do it(or nurses), plus the nurses time to restrain.

Vets are not out to rip people off, but if we did everything for the bare minimum it cost us, YOU would have no vet to go to as they wouldnt be able to afford to keep running a business! Speys are also already discounted at a huge price, if we priced them out as a proper abdominal surgery (which it is), the cost would be much much higher.

It is a luxury to have a pet, not a right, so people need to make sure they have the money to provide basic vet care (which desexing is basic vet care) before they go out and get a pet.

I say that the IV fluids are indeed a big markup as I'm a Registered Nurse in a hospital environment so understand exactly how the pumps, lines and bags work. The vet I first went to wanted to charge me $100 for IV fluids, you cannot tell me that that is an outright ripoff and huge markup. The IV pumps get used a million times over so make their money back, the only real cost is the fluid bag, the line and the 2mins it takes the nurse to hook the back up to the cannula. However it is worldly known that vet treatment has a cost and they can charge whatever they like basically, we all know owning pets was never going to be cheap nor easy and I pay the money as I need to keep my pooch healthy. I do know that $100 for a bag of fluid is a huge markup though, and that is a fact.

[jrm88]

$100 may be higher, they may have their reasons.

Maybe they are in a high rent area for the building so everything needs to be marked up more? Maybe they actually want to pay their staff a decent wage so they mark up their products more.

I dont mind people shopping around, we do it for everything, but people just do not seem to understand how much it actually costs to run a vet clinic.

And you being a registered nurse, should understand how expensive medical care actually would be if it wasnt for medicare! People think because they get their doctors appt for free and so many other medical procedures for free, they think the vet industry is a rip off when alot of vet clinics really dont make much profit at all.

Also just wanted to say it does not take "2 minutes" for a nurse to hook up the line to the fluids. We are often dealing with angry/upset/scared patients who want to bite, struggle, scratch and claw at us. It takes 2 people (or 1 incredibly talented person) to put in an IV line.

To put an IV fluid line in many animals is not straight forward. Oldies have crap veins, puppies/kittens get scared because they arent used to being restrained at all so freak out, cats are usually freaked out by dogs barking so try to bite/scratch us, some dogs just want to bite our faces off.... It is NOT straight forward to do IV fluids in all patients.

(Altho we do get some very nice patients who have great veins and stay perfectly still )

[Guest donatella]

$100 may be higher, they may have their reasons.

Maybe they are in a high rent area for the building so everything needs to be marked up more? Maybe they actually want to pay their staff a decent wage so they mark up their products more.

I dont mind people shopping around, we do it for everything, but people just do not seem to understand how much it actually costs to run a vet clinic.

And you being a registered nurse, should understand how expensive medical care actually would be if it wasnt for medicare! People think because they get their doctors appt for free and so many other medical procedures for free, they think the vet industry is a rip off when alot of vet clinics really dont make much profit at all.

Also just wanted to say it does not take "2 minutes" for a nurse to hook up the line to the fluids. We are often dealing with angry/upset/scared patients who want to bite, struggle, scratch and claw at us. It takes 2 people (or 1 incredibly talented person) to put in an IV line.

To put an IV fluid line in many animals is not straight forward. Oldies have crap veins, puppies/kittens get scared because they arent used to being restrained at all so freak out, cats are usually freaked out by dogs barking so try to bite/scratch us, some dogs just want to bite our faces off.... It is NOT straight forward to do IV fluids in all patients.

(Altho we do get some very nice patients who have great veins and stay perfectly still )

I think they mark up because this particular vet surgery neighbours a wealthy area so they probably can afford to charge that as there are some mansions on the hills around here worth millions (gorgeous houses that i'll never live in )

You have a point about the cannula although I'd have thought with a spey you'd hook the fluids up once the dog is asleep making it easier for the vet and nurse and to maintain a good BP throughout the procedure.

Anyway my hats go off to all vets and vet nurses, I could never do it, i get to easily upset seeing animals in pain and there is no way i could handle seeing animals being PTS. I can see humans sick and seem quite detached but when its helpless animals I just can't handle it.

[Staranais]

Donatella, by IV line JRM88 means the IV catheter. Catheter is put in while the animal is awake and still has good blood pressure. Fluids are hooked up to the catheter after the animal is induced. Many clinics do not use a catheter at all (just inject the anesthetic drugs straight into the vein), some use a catheter but give no fluids (provides IV access in an emergency), some use a catheter and give fluids as well.

[jrm88]

That would definately be why they charge $100 if there are wealthy mansions all around!! The price difference between city/out suburbs can be quite a lot.

Some clinics do not routinely put a catheter in, they just inject anaesthetic agent straight into the vein (e.g. large charity organisations would do this)and only put on fluids if bp gets quite low.

I'm the opposite of you, I'm more than happy to clean up dog poop/vomit/whatever but no thankyou to humans!!

[carameldog]

If you are happy with the level of care given the money should be a secondary consideration.

We are extremely happy with our vet and while we pay more for some things we also get great service ( even in the middle of the night. )Payment options are available for big costs, and when we had our 4 cats desexed we got group discounts for doing it all together. $300 for 3 toms and 1 female including microchipping.

It's been 16/17 years since we had the dogs desexed I don't remember the costs for that now. But when our Chloe was having seizures at 2 in the morning the vet met us straight away at the surgery, we didn't make it. The vet didn't charge us. Over the last few months with Amos we spent a lot of time and money at the vets, but for that last visit again there was no charge.

[dancinbcs]

I wouldn't go to a vet that offered optional extras beyond extra pain killers. They either need those things or they don't and the vet should be the one to decide, not the owner.

My vets are used by a big percentage of the breeders in Sydney and are in an outer suburb, so they have a lot of very regular clients and lower real estate overheads than the vets in the inner city. Their prices are much lower than what you have stated here. My last spey of a mature 19kg bitch was $170 three years ago. They are not the cheapest vets around here but are much cheaper than those that mainly see pets.

Look around at the prices charged by the vets that mainly deal with breeders. You will often find they offer great service and much expertise at better prices. Expensive is no guarantee of quality service and some vets are just out to rip owners off because they think expensive must be better. Some expensive vets are good but certainly not all of them.

[Danois]

Donatella - ever taken into account that hospitals would buy IV supplies in massive volumes whereas a vet surgery would buy them in limited quantities in comparison so not getting the benefit of bulk buying discounts?

I don't think IV fluids are a sham. I'd rather my dog was set up for it on the table so if something went wrong it was all in place as opposed to them wasting precious time trying to get the lines in.

My view is that price is secondary to the service and level of care your vet provides and I really do shake my head when people post here trying to find the cheapest price for things like desexing etc as opposed to finding the best care for their dog. Would you go to a surgeon for yourself based on price and not reputation/ skills/ experience etc?

I don't know if my vet is competitive with their prices - have not bothered to research it - all I know is I trust them without hesitation and drive about 45 mins to get to them - passing the 5 other clinics nearby and the Syd Uni clinic.

[Kirty]

I think those prices sound very reasonable. I generally get most female animals put on fluids when they are desexed but boys are in and out so quickly, I don't bother. As for pain relief, again I generally get it for the girls but no the boys (but they all get a pain relief shot at surgery).

[Guest donatella]

Donatella - ever taken into account that hospitals would buy IV supplies in massive volumes whereas a vet surgery would buy them in limited quantities in comparison so not getting the benefit of bulk buying discounts?

I don't think IV fluids are a sham. I'd rather my dog was set up for it on the table so if something went wrong it was all in place as opposed to them wasting precious time trying to get the lines in.

My view is that price is secondary to the service and level of care your vet provides and I really do shake my head when people post here trying to find the cheapest price for things like desexing etc as opposed to finding the best care for their dog. Would you go to a surgeon for yourself based on price and not reputation/ skills/ experience etc?

I don't know if my vet is competitive with their prices - have not bothered to research it - all I know is I trust them without hesitation and drive about 45 mins to get to them - passing the 5 other clinics nearby and the Syd Uni clinic.

I think the poster above makes a good point though, why make IV fluids an extra? If my dog needs it give it to her, why should I be the decider in that, i'm not the one in the surgery seeing how her BP is fluctuating throughout the process nor am i there while she wakes up after a the GA.

I agree with price and service and I too will be driving 30mins to a recommended vet who actually happens to be of good price too which is a bonus, but I am happy to pay the cost of care for my dog, she is part of my family.

[Kirty]

Yes but not everybody is like you. Some people baulk at having to pay just $100 to desex their pet. Therefore, if it is a young, healthy animal the vets will offer them the cheapest option possible. However, if something happened during surgery to warrant fluids, etc then I am sure the vets would not hesitate to give it to the animal.

[Guest donatella]

I just want whatever she needs for her in her best interest. if her BP is low then give her fluids, if she looks to be in pain after give her pain relief. I just want her to be as comfortable as possible, I don't want to decide before she goes in if she will get fluids or not.

Anyway the vet that i'm going to hasn't mentioned any extra's and will just do what is needed at the time in the dogs best interest, i'm already like a worried mum :D

[Staranais]

That's exactly why lots of vets offer different options. Some people are willing to pay almost anything to give their animal the most comfortable, safest surgery experience possible. Others want to pay as little as possible, even if there is a slight compromise in patient safety or comfort. Most owners are in between.

Saying "if her BP is low give her fluids" is an example of what I mean. The cheapest clinics I've worked at can't do this as they don't monitor blood pressure at all! Whereas the gold standard clinics I've seen will monitor blood pressure regularly, give routine fluids, and also do their best to correct blood pressure problems using fluid and drugs.

The most expensive clinic isn't always better - but more monitoring, more drugs, more fluids do cost more.

ETA, It's not necessarily that one option is good, and the other is bad, either. Both types of surgery will give an acceptable result in the vast majority of cases. But some owners will want to pay more to make surgery that tiny little bit safer. Others wouldn't or couldn't do the surgery at all if you make them pay for all the optional extras (pre-anaesthetic blood test - IV fluids - BP and pulse ox monitoring).

Edited September 24, 2011 by Staranais

[westiemum]

Donatella, those prices look pretty standard to me. But as others have said, its about quality service and value for money for me. If these are the prices you are paying and you are getting excellent service then I'd stay where you are.

I want the most comfortable and safest experience possible for my westies, particularly as they get older. So I always blood test and have IV and pain relief. I just hand the credit card over and figure thats why I pay extra into the mortgage every pay - to pay for these things. I recognise vet surgeries are expensive businesses to run and if I want that level of service then I need to pay my bit.

I paid over 10k to my vet for 2 ACL surgeries and a full left ear ablation and other bits and pieces in 2009 - and I don't care if I paid for his trip to Aspen that year - he deserved it - and I'd do it all again in a heart beat. But thats me - and I recognise that others see it differently. For me these are my family - and its simply part of the responsibility I took on - and would do again in a flash.

Edited September 24, 2011 by westiemum

[Kirty]

I work at a specialist clinic and every single animal has pain relief, ABs, fluids, etc - it is not an option. We don't do pre-surgery bloods though because a lot of our surgeries are needed regardless of the results (eg if the animal doesn't have surgery, it will need to be PTS). However, if it is an 'elective' procedure on an older animal or an animal we have any concerns about, we may recommend bloods.

[Staranais]

Sorry, just something more to add. The idea of vets offering different "options" for elective desexing surgery seems to be debated quite often on DOL, with some people liking it, and some people hating it. But, I think it needs to be noted that this isn't just something that vets do with spays. Vets offer different treatment options to clients in heaps of situations. Offering different standards of treatment to fit different budgets is unfortunately a necessary part of veterinary practice.

e.g., we get presented with a puppy with a shattered humerus. Gold standard option might be referral to the specialist surgical facility in a different town - cost will be at least $1500. Next best (and next most expensive) option, the local vet has a go at plating or pinning it - cost, maybe $800. Next best option, the local vet amputates the leg - cost, maybe a few hundred. And the cheapest humane option is that the dog is PTS.

The point is, which is the "best" option in that situation depends partially on the client's budget. Most owners won't afford the gold standard option, but it does need to be offered for those clients that want to pay for the best. Many clients won't want to amputate, but it needs to be offered because if it's all the clients can afford, it's better than PTS.