Why Do People Feel That A Tug Game

[caffy]

Be very careful here KTB. In something you can clearly measure like weaves, start lines or contacts, this can work so long as your criteria is clearly defined.

With general handling this becomes much harder to get right. If my dogs miss a jump or take the wrong one, they are never wrong as far as I'm concerned. 99 times out of 100 it is a bad cue I gave or poor timing. To make them think they did the wrong thing when responding to a cue at speed is to make them hesitant and erode the trust they have in me & my handling.

Ditto Vickie.

I take the blame for an incorrect obstacle. An interesting exercise is to go back and re do your sequence but cue the incorrect obstacle to compare how you just handled it when your dog took it "incorrectly". Then try again how you originally planned to run it...and just see how different your cues were or weren't ;)

[The Spotted Devil]

And in terms of weaves, if Zig misses a pole or entry it's a signal that I need to go and work on it in isolation. Otherwise he can become hesitant.

The last few weeks I've been working on angled weave entries using 4 poles. It came off beautifully in the following trials except we couldn't nail a straight entry to save ourselves

[krustie22]

DO you really need a tug though to rev your dog up? I can achieve basically the same result with a bit of "rough play" and chasey with my dog before a run- I don't see why tug would necessarily be the only way to increase drive or excitement.

You can also do this with food, if you teach the dog to chase the food and capture it on the run.

I can too, but i personally would be too worried about distracting others who are waiting in close proximity for their run.

i dont think anyone said its the only way, just another handy reinforcer to have that is more suitable to certain situations.

[koalathebear]

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Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[Vickie]

Also, I have no doubt that most of Elbie's mistakes are caused by me but thusfar he seems fine about stopping the course and starting again if either of us makes a mistake.

Sounds like you have it all worked out. Please be aware though that this WILL have a negative impact on your teamwork. He may not shutdown, but he will trust you a little less each time you do this.

[koalathebear]

Sounds like you have it all worked out. Please be aware though that this WILL have a negative impact on your teamwork. He may not shutdown, but he will trust you a little less each time you do this.

Thank you for your feedback.

dasha: I am really sorry I posted. I've deleted all of my posts so hopefully the comments will return to your original topic. I hope you get all the answers you sought to your tug question!

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[kelpiechick]

In training, if he makes a mistake, I say: "No" and we start again. So if I say 'no' during the weaves, I take him back to the beginning and he does it again until he gets it right. Same thing with the course on Wednesday night, when we made a mistake, we stopped and started again or went back a few steps so he only runs the full course when everything is done right. Then he'll get a treat.

Be very careful here KTB. In something you can clearly measure like weaves, start lines or contacts, this can work so long as your criteria is clearly defined.

With general handling this becomes much harder to get right. If my dogs miss a jump or take the wrong one, they are never wrong as far as I'm concerned. 99 times out of 100 it is a bad cue I gave or poor timing. To make them think they did the wrong thing when responding to a cue at speed is to make them hesitant and erode the trust they have in me & my handling.

x3 ! Also with something like weaves it can sometimes be a training issue - most of us tend to think something is 'trained' long before it actually is plus dogs don't always generalise well onto different sets of weaves, weaves in different positions, etc, when they haven't been doing agility for all that long.

I would be collecting a bit of video evidence first and having a close look to see exactly what I was doing and what my dog was doing before I started using a 'no' ....... I would be very careful about using a 'no' in relation to agilty in any form as I agree with Vickie that you will end up creating a dog that slows right down because they are too cautious about making a mistake.

Beware long training sessions too - just because they can doesn't mean they should. 5 minutes or so is usually enough for my kelpies whereas my BC would probably go 5 hours if I let her, but that ain't gonna happen

[corvus]

Hoover's adorable, but I do love Elbie's "Yes, I'm touching it, just!" :D You do what you like, KtB. I make lots of mistakes and people are all like "Do it this way or you'll have problems later" and sometimes I do and sometimes I don't, but whatever the case, it's stuff I have to learn on my own. When I was first learning about training a lot of people would give me dire predictions about what I was doing and how wrong it was and it would make me feel all pressured and insecure and it doesn't really help anyone. The best thing I can do is be sure of myself. If I'm sure of myself and create a problem, that's fine, I can fix it and I'll be sure of myself while I do and it's all good. If people are so concerned about getting into a dog sport and being competitive that they can't afford to make mistakes and learn how to fix them, well, so be it, but it's certainly not my idea of fun.

And to me that goes for tug as well. Try stuff out. If you don't want to use it for whatever reason, don't. But if you've got a theory, why not test it? What's the worst that can happen?

[Vickie]

If people are so concerned about getting into a dog sport and being competitive that they can't afford to make mistakes and learn how to fix them, well, so be it, but it's certainly not my idea of fun.

Ah yes, but you see, this is not about being competitive at all. This is about maximizing fun for the DOG and consequently the handler.

Why on earth you would want to proceed with something, after a bunch of experienced people have explained why it's a bad idea and that it will have negative consequences for your dog, is totally beyond me. This has nothing to do with being competitive.

[dasha]

KTB its a discussion forum so any replies are welcome. Sometimes reading someones elses posts trigger a thought for someone else so don't feel you should not have your post here.

[Cosmolo]

What does everyone feel is the difference between a dog being given a neutral verbal no reward mark, taken back to repeat an exercise and the dog being taken back to repeat the exercise without being given the verbal no reward mark?

[corvus]

Why on earth you would want to proceed with something, after a bunch of experienced people have explained why it's a bad idea and that it will have negative consequences for your dog, is totally beyond me.

I'd have a hard time doing completely unique things in training. And I'd have a hard time finding something that every experienced person on the planet even agrees over. So I've got to disregard someone. And generally I've got to heed someone as well, even if it's someone who is just saying "You know your dog best, you decide."

[lilli_star]

Why on earth you would want to proceed with something, after a bunch of experienced people have explained why it's a bad idea and that it will have negative consequences for your dog, is totally beyond me.

I'd have a hard time doing completely unique things in training. And I'd have a hard time finding something that every experienced person on the planet even agrees over. So I've got to disregard someone. And generally I've got to heed someone as well, even if it's someone who is just saying "You know your dog best, you decide."

Well said.

[Staranais]

What does everyone feel is the difference between a dog being given a neutral verbal no reward mark, taken back to repeat an exercise and the dog being taken back to repeat the exercise without being given the verbal no reward mark?

I'd guess that in general, giving a verbal NRM would be far less confusing for the dog than not giving a verbal NRM. Without a verbal NRM marking the moment the "mistake" was made, the dog has to guess what caused it to have to repeat the exercise.

Having said that, this relies on the NRM being a true NRM - i.e. purely indicating loss of reward, not being at all inherently aversive to the dog. Few people I've met who use NRM manage to achieve that. Most times it doesn't seem to matter, but I can see how using a slightly aversive "NRM" would be an issue for a soft dog.

I don't know if this is what Vickie is talking about, though. I get the feeling that Vickie is talking about giving the dog the benefit of the doubt, and if the dog takes the wrong obstacle, then assuming the fault is her own and rewarding the "wrong" obstacle as if it were the right one. Similar to scent work - we try to be very careful about telling the dog it is "wrong" when it is working scent, since we often can't be 100% sure what it is smelling, and we don't want to risk giving the dog a NRM or punisher when it is actually working the correct scent. If in doubt, we may just reward the dog and set up the scent problem more carefully next time.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Staranais

[Kavik]

Kaos wants to get things right, he doesn't purposely take incorrect obstacles. If he pulls off a jump, or takes an off course tunnel, it is much more likely that either he got confused (rear crosses), I slowed down or turned too early, or didn't signal soon enough (off course tunnel). I'm finding that this year my challenges are different to last year. Last year he powered ahead and I had most of my problems with off course obstacles and turning. This year he is reading my body much better but is pulling off jumps earlier if I turn or slow down.

[krustie22]

What does everyone feel is the difference between a dog being given a neutral verbal no reward mark, taken back to repeat an exercise and the dog being taken back to repeat the exercise without being given the verbal no reward mark?

the way i understand is a NRM is given if the dog understands the criteria but gets it wrong...if the dog is still learning the criteria it is best to use no comment/no reward and let them think about how to get the reward

[Cosmolo]

Thats my understanding of use of a NRM too- which is why i am genuinely interested in why some are so opposed to using it in certain contexts. I have used it in agility (on my own dogs, i don't teach it to clients as none of their dogs are ready/ suitable/ need one) for weavers and jumping off contacts for one dog (who was trained with running contacts and i haven't yet retrained, and may not ever) and have found it useful and helpful in those specific circumstances. I have never used it for the dog taking an incorrect obstacle or pulling off an obstacle though for the reasons mentioned. Maybe i have misunderstood- is it being suggested that any NRM use in agility will be damaging?

[Kavik]

I use a NRM for weave entries

[JulesP]

I don't use NRM, the dogs tend to take it to heart too much. Even trying to repeat an exercise without praise tends to cause angst. I just use different levels of praise.

[huski]

I can't talk too much about agility as I haven't been doing it long enough (though I did give Daisy a NRM when she broke a stay at the start line the other night) but when I give Daisy a NRM in obedience it actually makes her try harder. And I might NRM for barking during heelwork or stays, or looking away in heelwork etc.