Why Do People Feel That A Tug Game

[Kavik]

I also don't understand why agility people in particular- think that a dog MUST take a tug as a reward.

Susan Garrett is one of those that think dogs should tug for agility - I think she only allows people into her physical classes if they tug?

Certainly part of it is probably ease of reward. Many dogs are more excited by toys than food (the work is faster/flashier/drivier). You can't reward with a thrown or noisy toy straight away in a trial, but you can tug. And tug is an interactive game with the handler. And you can reward the dog with a toy close to you, such as recall, or stationary position, eg contacts, where otherwise you'd have to use food as you wouldn't want to use a thrown toy then.

ETA: also you can use a tug for rewarding in NFC runs, but you can't throw a toy or use food, so you basically can't make use of them unless your dog tugs.

Throwing/retrieving a thrown toy is alot easier though

Edited September 23, 2011 by Kavik

[rastus_froggy]

I tried teaching one of my dogs to tug after going to the Susan Garrett course using one of the mesh food bags but she REALLY doesn't like putting anything in her mouth (other than food), so I decided just to use other methods. It was stressing her our to put the bag in her mouth and she would much prefer to jump up and have a cuddle or to have a food treat.

[corvus]

I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to use different methods of reward to suit the dog, not try to mould the dog into liking something YOU think it should if you get what I mean.

Just for a different perspective, I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to choose the rewards they want to use, not have to be constrained by their dogs' primary motivator. Often you hear "you don't choose the reward, your dog does", but honestly, you can make just about anything rewarding to your dog if you want to, so why wouldn't you if you want to?

[Kavik]

Trying to get the dog to tug if they don't like toys at all would certainly be very difficult. Mine likes toys, and works very well for thrown toys, and currently will tug in the yard, but not out and about. If he didn't like toys at all, I would stick to food.

I was really bummed when I heard about the NFC runs - would be very handy to be able to use them for a variety of proofing exercises/trial/ring related problems, but I can't make use of them atm cause he won't tug.

[PAX]

Tugging heaps with lots of dogs stops you from getting bingo wings.

[dasha]

Good point Pax.

Interesting point bought up by a few people. If you want to tug to create a bond with your dog because a thrown toy in not interactive..... why throw the toy. If the dog wants it, offer it and the game is then to try to beat you to it.

Kavik, in some of your things you have said you can't use food. Why is that. Why would any dog sport not allow people to reward their dog with food after a run?

[aussielover]

Tugging heaps with lots of dogs stops you from getting bingo wings.

Can you ever make another type of reward more rewarding than your original primary motivator?

Eg. can a dog whose main drive is food, ever learn to like say, a tug more than food?

Especially a dog that had zero interest in toys and tugging to begin with...

Although, I tend to find that a lot of dogs who have high drive for food, also have high to reasonable drive for tugging and vice versa.

[Kavik]

You can't use food in Not For Competition runs because these runs are designed for you to be able to reward your dog in the ring to allow you to fix any issues that may appear in competition but may not appear in training. start lines or contacts or weave speed etc. Obviously you can't take food into the ring, so you can't get the benefit of them.

[aussielover]

Good point Pax.

Interesting point bought up by a few people. If you want to tug to create a bond with your dog because a thrown toy in not interactive..... why throw the toy. If the dog wants it, offer it and the game is then to try to beat you to it.

Kavik, in some of your things you have said you can't use food. Why is that. Why would any dog sport not allow people to reward their dog with food after a run?

I know in agility a lot of clubs don't like you to use food, because a) they think tug is a superior reward and keeps the dogs in drive better and b) they don't like their grounds being littered with dropped treats etc as it can distract the dogs...

Obviously it is ideal to train dogs not to be distracte by food, but it can be really frustrating when you're just starting out, so its understandable in a way.

[Kavik]

I don't know of any clubs that look down on food (most people use food for something in their training attention, tricks etc).

You can always have food at the end of a run in competition, it is only in runs where you are allowed to reward during the run that you can't because you are not allowed to take it in the ring for obvious reasons such as distracting other dogs by dropped bits and smells. My dog's favourite reward though is thrown atm and you can't do that straight away except at training.

[dasha]

But couldn't you bridge the behaviour, praise off on way to primary reward on side line? That way no food in ring.

Anyway, people shouldn't be using food if they are going to drop it everywhere

[aussielover]

I don't know of any clubs that look down on food (most people use food for something in their training attention, tricks etc).

You can always have food at the end of a run in competition, it is only in runs where you are allowed to reward during the run that you can't because you are not allowed to take it in the ring for obvious reasons such as distracting other dogs by dropped bits and smells. My dog's favourite reward though is thrown atm and you can't do that straight away except at training.

Sorry I shouldn't have said a lot of clubs, but I do know of one or two that look down on use of food and basically think tug is superior. Also some instructors within our club (which encourages the use of food) think that tugging is superior, but they don't actually go so far as to stop you using food.

[aussielover]

But couldn't you bridge the behaviour, praise off on way to primary reward on side line? That way no food in ring.

Anyway, people shouldn't be using food if they are going to drop it everywhere

LOL I wish!!!

Wouldn't you have to keep running in and out of the ring if you were to do the above?

[Kavik]

I don't know. The rule as far as I can make out is that you can only reward with a toy that does not leave your hand in the ring. Since you only get standard course time, you wouldn't want to waste time running out of the ring to reward anyway. The benefit is being able to reward straight away like you would at training to prevent ring wise issues. Running out would still mean a delay in the reward.

[krustie22]

I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to use different methods of reward to suit the dog, not try to mould the dog into liking something YOU think it should if you get what I mean.

ideally you want all refinforcement to come from you right? you dont want the dog to choose environment over you when you are working right? tugging is not about moulding a dog to like something it doesnt, it is about getting it to engage with you for that reinforcement. a lot of ppl have already stated a LOT of good reasons for teaching their dog to tug. it is just a behaviour, like any other, that when rewarded enough, becomes rewarding itself. my dog loves hand touches now. if she does a good job and i dont have anything on me to reward her with, a couple of quick hand touches is a really fun game for her! it is about the engagement, not the object/treat...IMO... ;)

[krustie22]

Susan Garrett is one of those that think dogs should tug for agility - I think she only allows people into her physical classes if they tug?

no, but she will make sure they can tug by the time the class/seminar is finished!

Just for a different perspective, I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to choose the rewards they want to use, not have to be constrained by their dogs' primary motivator. Often you hear "you don't choose the reward, your dog does", but honestly, you can make just about anything rewarding to your dog if you want to, so why wouldn't you if you want to?

+1

Edited September 23, 2011 by krustie22

[PAX]

But you should have a bridge word/words to get from the ring to the dogs reward. Your dog should have faith that you will always provide the reward through reward history.:D

[dasha]

Yes Pax that what I meant before. You shouldn't have to provide the reward instantly if you have correctly trained a bridge word/s. Isn't that why you use a bridge? So you can inform the dog that is is correct and then get the reward

Thats what I have learnt anyway.

Sometimes it isn't possible to give the reward in that second so you bridge and as you go to the reward or are preparing it you can still praise the dog to keep the anticipation of the reward.

Anyway sometimes I am not good at writing what I mean :rolleyes:

[PAX]

I get your point, and you are correct, but needs to have lots of value of the game/reward, reward history, consistency of markers and bridge words, and faith of a reward. Easy!

[Kavik]

Next time I talk to a judge I will ask them about it. If they go out of the ring to deliver the reward, that doesn't break the rule. May take a lot of time though, which you don't get that much of for a course. Not sure how it would work re start lines though? (something that was stated as what a lot of people would use it for) as you want to reward the stay, which normally means rewarding in position. Contacts as well, many people would reward in position for 2o2o.