Why Do People Feel That A Tug Game

[The Spotted Devil]

The problem with using a NRM is that we often assume the dog understands the criteria when they don't. Plus we have a tendency to let criteria slide in the first place. We've been trialling for 18 months and never had a major issue with weave entries. However when I broke it down to it's very basics it was clear that Zig didn't truly understand the criteria....so I was giving him a NRM for "trying" which goes completely against my training principles. I do use it but very carefully and only when I am working on something very precise that I can mark. I use a very bright happy voice and he responds in kind.

[krustie22]

Thats my understanding of use of a NRM too- which is why i am genuinely interested in why some are so opposed to using it in certain contexts. I have used it in agility (on my own dogs, i don't teach it to clients as none of their dogs are ready/ suitable/ need one) for weavers and jumping off contacts for one dog (who was trained with running contacts and i haven't yet retrained, and may not ever) and have found it useful and helpful in those specific circumstances. I have never used it for the dog taking an incorrect obstacle or pulling off an obstacle though for the reasons mentioned. Maybe i have misunderstood- is it being suggested that any NRM use in agility will be damaging?

i feel it is important for things like the weaves, as what i took away from susan garrett is that, once the dog understands the criteria expected, if they make a mistake on the weaves and are allowed to continue, since the weaves have had so much value built into them, they are rewarding for the dog to finish. it is better to give their NRM such as oops, and have them come out and try again. this shouldnt be aversive for a dog that has shaping experience as they know that failure is not bad, it just means "wanna try again?"

[kelpiechick]

The problem with using a NRM is that we often assume the dog understands the criteria when they don't.

What she said

Plus it also depends very much on the dog and knowing your own dog. What might be a NRM for one dog borderlines on being a correction for another so I don't think it's a black and white issue where you can say yes it's Ok or no it's not.

A lot of people also have trouble keeping it unemotional and their body language upbeat. Tape yourself next time and listen to how you sound and it's sometimes not as you thought you did.

[krustie22]

The problem with using a NRM is that we often assume the dog understands the criteria when they don't.

What she said

Plus it also depends very much on the dog and knowing your own dog. What might be a NRM for one dog borderlines on being a correction for another so I don't think it's a black and white issue where you can say yes it's Ok or no it's not.

A lot of people also have trouble keeping it unemotional and their body language upbeat. Tape yourself next time and listen to how you sound and it's sometimes not as you thought you did.

i KNOW i am guilty of this...cant wait to get a vid camera so i can film our training sessions and rip em apart!

Edited September 25, 2011 by krustie22

[DeltaCharlie]

Ive scanned through and it doesn't seem to have been mentioned so to go back to the original question:

The number one reason that I was told a tug is preferable to food is the quantity of reward they are receiving. I have 3 agility dogs and they all have a different preferred reward (and I work to their preferences where required, even if it is not my preference).

At the end of a sequence their rewards are:

Delta (food)- A few bits of food given to her, possible a jackpot container if deserved. Total time= 3-4 secs of rewarding (if that).

Charlie (ball)- Gets to chase his ball. Total time= 10secs (more or less depending on length of throw).

Whip (tug)- Gets to play tug with me. Total time= however long I want to tug with him, can be all the way back to his crate if I so choose.

In terms of quantity (length of time being rewarded) the Tug is definitely the best.

Pros:

Food- Can be used in position, great for precision work, can use their dinner as a big jackpot (eg Delta used to weave for her dinner each night).

Ball- Good way to reward for distance work (throw it out to where dog is). Encourages dog to drive away from you.

Tug- Very interactive, reward is coming directly from you and if you are getting really into the game its even better for the dog.

Cons:

Food- Not particularly convenient, the higher value the reward the messier they are LOL, can't really be thrown (unless you use ridiculously large bits), can be distracting the next time you work in that area if the dog is looking for dropped treats.

Ball- Dogs can start anticipating throws (I can't work Charlie on a tight sequence if he knows I have a ball as he anticipates it after every jump and doesn't focus on my body cues, instead he starts taking off into no-mans land), increasing the duration of reward (multiple throws) increases fatigue and lowers number of repetitions that can be completed. 3 of our dogs are heat intolerant, they would wear themselves out too much with multiple throws in the heat.

Tug- Not good for the handler in a chiropractic sense LOL, harder to throw distances, initially dogs may curl in looking for tug reward instead of maintaining obstacle focus.

Ideally I would want a dog that will accept 2 or 3 of these rewards readily and with equal value for each.

Delta will only work for food outside of home, however, absolutely loves her isqueak ball at home and will quite often tug for small periods of time. When the toys come out at home she reaches a much higher level of arousal and I can get so much more out of her than I ever can with food. Unfortunately I have never been able to transfer that to somewhere other than home.

Charlie will now work for all 3, although initially he came to me only happy to work for a ball. It took a bit to get him accepting food (and now he goes nuts for it) as I couldn't throw a ball for him in the flyball ring, and to this day there is no way in hell he will drop a tennis ball for a tug. If there are no balls around he will happily work for a tug, although that took a bit of work to achieve. I managed to transfer the value of fetching by rewarding a split second tug (with release cue) with a throw and slowly increased the time he was required to tug before I gave the release cue and threw the tug. If he released before then he had to resume tugging before I threw it. I will still use a ball with him whenever possible as that is GOD, however, as I mentioned when we are working on tight sequences etc then I will take a tug instead and it gives me the option of running NFC. At the end of a run at a trial he will now drag me to the nearest grass patch so that we can throw his lead (still needs to tug on return).

Whip isn't a huge lover of food, however, he will quite happily work for food during training which I need for precision stuff and when I require a lower level of arousal. When I was training his contacts initially I think he would have blown his mind if I used a tug, I needed the food to keep him calm and thinking. Then I slowly progressed to tugging with him in position. At obedience I will use food for all the precise positioning and at the end of a short sequence we will have a big game of tug on his lead. Whip at the moment has developed a slightly higher value for a tennis ball than his tug which is playing a little havoc with his flyball training, although that is just a matter of increasing the tug value again and reducing the time spent freeplaying with tennis balls.

[bedazzledx2]

Another thought.... chase and tug games are like hunt and kill, food is the end product and is a natural tranquilliser. Oversimplified but I think of food as static and tug and chase is for driving and speed. I admit to being a huge food user and my dogs are very motivated by it but I also find exciting ways to use it...two food games and jackpots.

I am training my youngster with either food or tug as his reward but he is super strong and tuggy can be painful for me sometimes

[huski]

Bedazzled I think a lot people don't realize you can build drive with food too, like playing the two food game etc IMO there is a big difference between food exchange and food drive.

Sometimes the way I see people use food rewards the dog for calmness rather than drive, though I understand how/why people do that when they are working with a primarily prey driven dog and don't want the dog in a full on hyped state.

[Bull Arab]

From what i have observed in my limited experience, dogs that play sports where they need to drive away from the handler (e.g. Flyball) seem to (generally speaking) do the away part faster and with more drive if they are working for a tuggie than a food reward. Food rewarded dogs certainly come back faster than they drive away (again generally). Perhaps it has to do with the energy and hype that goes into the tuggie reward? I can atest to how hyped some dogs get on the end of a tuggie (so can my other half when they nearly pull her arm out) and in a point and shoot sport I would think this would be a big help when you want the dog to run away from you? Of course horses for courses I have one dog that plays tuggie at home, plays with the other dogs but will always prefer food rewards and works very well for them. If I show her a tuggie in public (especially around other dogs) she could not give a damn about it. On the other hand we have one older dog that does not care what happens in the world around him if he has his tuggie!!

[aussielover]

Interesting thoughts.

If I want fast work- like weaves or a jump series, I generally find the ball is the best reward.

I use food as an overall reward- if there is a comp or trial (i've only been to informal club trials so far though)then I will reward at the end of a run with food as it is impractical to reward with a ball (disrupt other dogs).

[huski]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive. Of course individually, a dog may work better or with more intensity for a prey reward than a food reward and vice versa.

Bull Arab in regards to the dog working away from you better when you are reinforcing it with a toy - I'd suggest this has more to do with where the dog is being rewarded (i.e. if the dog is always being rewarded away from you when you throw the toy, of course it will move away from you faster) than it really being about a difference between using a toy or food reward.

[Bull Arab]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive. Of course individually, a dog may work better or with more intensity for a prey reward than a food reward and vice versa.

Bull Arab in regards to the dog working away from you better when you are reinforcing it with a toy - I'd suggest this has more to do with where the dog is being rewarded (i.e. if the dog is always being rewarded away from you when you throw the toy, of course it will move away from you faster) than it really being about a difference between using a toy or food reward.

As I said just an observation and not based on anything other than watching a lot of dogs do a lot of running. But I think you are right about the dog being rewarded (all be it mid behavior) by running to a ball. My point is dogs always seem more 'hyped' when working to a tuggie than for food reward alone and if they are warmed up using one I think they run better. Of course you can always use a combo of rewards cant you as there is more than one way to skin a stuffed plush toy cat!!

Will watch what happens with the new (16 week old) who plays tuggie like he is possessed. Just about to start using it as a reward for behaviors and fading some of the treats out.

[huski]

My point is dogs always seem more 'hyped' when working to a tuggie than for food reward alone and if they are warmed up using one I think they run better.

I think that comes down to the individual dog (being more prey driven than food driven which many sport dogs are as that is what their owners select for) and owners not knowing how to use food to get drive. I think how the reward is used is crucial!

[corvus]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive.

Just a thought... Maybe because you're looking at anticipation rather than a particular drive, as such? Positive anticipation feels much the same regardless of what you're anticipating.

[huski]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive.

Just a thought... Maybe because you're looking at anticipation rather than a particular drive, as such? Positive anticipation feels much the same regardless of what you're anticipating.

If is a dog is anticipating a prey drive reward what would you call it?

[Vickie]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive. Of course individually, a dog may work better or with more intensity for a prey reward than a food reward and vice versa.

Agree. I often watch dogs training or competing now and cannot tell whether they are rewarded with toys or food.

[Lablover]

Huski and Vickie,

Interesting. I have labradors, a breed, famous for their food love. I concentrate on working labradors who are famous for .............their love of retrieving.

I tested my older male as he was "tied" twice over the weekend. He still wanted to fetch, abetless than normal. Poor soul. Nevertheless I found my little experiment interesting!!!

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh you meanie LL That dog would fetch with 2 legs tied together!!!

ETA: Interestingly my dogs have been in kennels for a week. I supplied food for Zig and they commented on how slowly he ate. Obviously a little stressed but what a different dog in training yesterday and tonight - nearly took my arm off at the elbow ;) And tugged like a fiend :D

Edited September 26, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[dasha]

I think a dog trained and rewarded correctly using food can give at least as good a performance as a play reward dog, and display the same kind of drive.

Obviously depending on the dog and the handler.

I think it comes down to identifying the type of natural drive the dog has, developing the drive/desire and rewarding with the desired choice. Once the dog understands the idea of behaviour in exchange for its most favoured reward, the possibilities are endless. In a nutshell

I have worked with many dogs over the years and some were food reward dogs and some were tug reward dogs. Basically overall there was no difference in their work ethic or performance other than individual variations and ability to do the job.

The play dogs games varied from great tugs to a catch or chase the tug game depending on if the dog had to work again straight away, what the dog actually found (uncommon items had a more valued reward). The length of game varied as well.

The food dogs rewards varied from regular kibble biscuits to something better like devon or chicken/roast meat leftovers. The delivery was also varied (sometimes at source of odour, mainly bridged and return for reward), and the amount given was also varied.

It was noticed that if a play reward dog was frequently rewarded with food, its response diminished. The same happened with food dogs rewarded with play/tug. It was all fine to do occassionally but not too often.

So that is why I was asking why people with food driven dogs would try to change what the dog found MOST rewarding into accepting a less preferred reward.

Edited September 26, 2011 by dasha

[Staranais]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive. Of course individually, a dog may work better or with more intensity for a prey reward than a food reward and vice versa.

Agree. I often watch dogs training or competing now and cannot tell whether they are rewarded with toys or food.

Although, I've never seen a SAR dog I'd want to own that was trained with food as the sole reward. I'm not sure if that is the training methodology, or the reward, but I've seen a few that are food reward dogs & none were really hugely impressive.

[corvus]

I actually think that a dog working in prey drive looks much the same as a dog working in food drive.

Just a thought... Maybe because you're looking at anticipation rather than a particular drive, as such? Positive anticipation feels much the same regardless of what you're anticipating.

If is a dog is anticipating a prey drive reward what would you call it?

Anticipation. Remember when we were having this discussion a couple of years ago? I was saying in the moments leading up to the reward, the dog looks the same regardless of what they are expecting to get, but at the moment of reward delivery they look different. This makes more sense after reading some Panksepp. Panksepp says there is little evidence for specific pathways in the brain for specific rewards. Instead, there is more evidence for a generalised reward system where the actual reward is easily interchangeable. He also says animals that are predisposed to be a touch obsessive about one reward will easily switch to another if their preferred one is not available, and pursue the second one with all the motivation they pursued the first one.

Panksepp considers prey drive and food drive to come under the same umbrella. With some exceptions. Behaviour is very plastic and can pretty easily slip into areas of overlap, for example, predatory aggression is thought to have a wee bit of RAGE in it as well as SEEK.

ETA I don't think it makes much sense to split something with no discernible variation into smaller categories, particularly when those categories are defined by something that you have already claimed has no effect on the observed behaviour.

Edited September 26, 2011 by corvus