Why Do People Feel That A Tug Game

[dasha]

I have this question mainly as a general conversation.

I have noticed the past threads with people feeling that they NEED their dog to play tug, they NEED to find the best toy for the dog and train the dog to like Tug over food.

I am curious as to why, if you had a dog that had GREAT food drive, why you wouldn't use that as the dogs primary reward. However some people then feel the need to use food to train dog to accept tug a higher value reward. Hasn't the dog already shown you what it would prefer in life and as a trainer, shouldn't you be able to use the best motivator for the dog rather than the best motivator for the handler.

I understand that some high drive dogs naturally love a game of tug, but there are some dogs that would turn inside out for food and no matter how full they are, will still work for the chance to get the little piece of food that may be on offer.

I think there are benefits of using food over tug in a lot of instances no matter what sport you want to do or result you want.

If anyone wants to explain why they feel tug is so important that they would try to chnage what the dog actually values, I would be interested to hear.

[corvus]

In my view, I don't want to change what my dogs value. I want to have more reinforcers. Tug is a good reinforcer because it is social, active, and engages my dog in play, which is associated with a positive emotional state. I can use play to put my dog in a state where they are bouncy and animated, which in turn is helpful in shaping behaviours that are more likely to occur or look the way I want them to look when my dog is more aroused than usual. I can do that with food if I use a snappy, high reward rate and structure my training session to include lots of easy, active behaviours, but usually I find play does the job better. I can also get the animation with food if I create anticipation for a food reward, and I do, but sometimes still find tug is better suited to it. I don't use tug for much at all. Mostly food, but sometimes they want tug more, so they get tug. Other times I just dot it around in there as part of developing a secondary reinforcer.

Tug is also a useful reward because you can throw a tug toy and reward the dog away from you.

What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want more reinforcers. Why limit yourself to one kind of reinforcer if you don't have to? Why wouldn't you have as many reinforcement options as you can be bothered establishing?

[The Spotted Devil]

Good question. My Dally has always preferred food and I have taught him to enjoy tug. I don't use it as a reward but more as a tool to get him focussed for agility - in fact I feel as though I've back chained it like the retrieve as we are starting to play tug before we train/compete, enter the ring and then food is his reward at the end. He would be mightily peeved if his reward was a tug but will happily tug in the presence of food before we run. But this was a dog that wasn't even motivated by food or praise or anything apart from wanting to lift his leg somewhere (thank you Premack!!!) so I have spent the last 4.5 years trying to work out what makes him tick and developing any reinforcer I can think of.

[koalathebear]

I've always been a bit puzzled, too. I wouldn't say tug is a better reward than food - I like to mix things up with our two. A bit of tug, a bit of food. He loves balls as well. It makes life more interesting.

Elbie is crazy about food. He LOVES the tug and will do things for tug but as soon as there's food, he doesn't care about the tug or a ball. I find the tug is quite nice to help focus before class and get his attention but I don't really use it at agility because it's too clunky to try to run around with a tug in my hand or my pocket. I never needed to throw the tug or a ball over anything because he's the sort of dog that will do what you want when he figures out what you want him to do so he'll jump/go through tunnels etc without anything being tossed. Also for him, agility is self-rewarding so when there's a full course he doesn't actually need any food.

Last night at training, I was told I rewarded Elbie too late after he finished a run but to be honest, he didn't need it, I just gave it to him as an afterthought.

[krustie22]

my main reason for wanting to train the tug as a reward is mainly so i have something i can throw rather than food. when training weaves using 2x2 method, i tried throwing food along the reward line, and she would eat it, then sniff where it was for a while. with the toy, she would drive to the toy, drive back and have a game...which in turn rev'd her up for the next turn. i now dont throw any treats as i dont want her rewarding off the ground for food.

i also used tug to get her rev'd up for our agility runs on friday. the first one i used food, which she is nuts for, and i didnt see the effect in the end...it was pretty bad lol. the next 2 runs i used the tug before the runs, and we smashed it! :D

i agree with above, you can never have too many reinforcers!!

i think most good trainers would like the dog to 1. tug in the presence of food, and 2. take a food treat in the presence of toys...you wont always have food on you to reward your dog, but you can ALWAYS play ;)

[J...]

My dogs love both food and playing tug - but the level of arousal I get from using a tug toy wins every time. Being able to use both gives me better flexibility, and my training bag will always contain both.

I've had my moments with using tug toys but then I've needed to take a better look at what was really going on - a dog too low on the arousal curve, me inadvertently rewarding my dog for not taking the tug toy - my dog is usually telling me a story, just a matter of whether I'm listening.

Also for him, agility is self-rewarding so when there's a full course he doesn't actually need any food.

Last night at training, I was told I rewarded Elbie too late after he finished a run but to be honest, he didn't need it, I just gave it to him as an afterthought.

So how do you reward a dog who's already self-rewarded himself? More to the point, how do you withhold reward from a dog who's already self-rewarded himself?

[ness]

My two are like chalk and cheese - my older one would turn herself inside out for a piece of food even when she has eaten all day so has only ever been trained using food as a reward. I have never used a toy as a reward in her training and she has got as far as trialling in UD and has all her agility titles.

My youngster in comparison has never been interested in food so has been trained using a tug.

I know other dogs who have been trained exclusively using food and they certainly aren't lacking in drive.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ness

[Sayreovi]

I don't get it either and some people don't understand that my dog likes food better than tugging. It used to happen alot in flyball as majority of dogs return for a toy or a combination whereas both my dogs always did it for food (or in Darcys case a big hug and a "good boy" crooned at him :p)

My young girl is the only one who readily tugs like a mad dog so I use that as a reward but she also works just as hard with food or just for praise.

[ness]

I always find this funny - Kenz has been trained primarily using a tug toy - for the last 10 months she has been on heavily limited tugging before of her shoulder injury so I went through a stage of just using food at home with her just to train anything. Well that was all well and good for about 6-12 treats - she would then disappear on me and find a "toy" - since she has no toys out it normally ended up being the nearest twig or anything - although she did uncover a collection of random toys I never knew were even present in the garden.

[corvus]

Elbie is crazy about food. He LOVES the tug and will do things for tug but as soon as there's food, he doesn't care about the tug or a ball.

Dogs generally won't unless you teach them. It's like changing tracks. It's not really natural for them to go from food to tug and back to food. The two use brain pathways that are thought to be antagonistic to one another. They have to learn how to do it and then it becomes easy for them same as anything they are taught how to do.

[koalathebear]

.

Edited September 24, 2011 by koalathebear

[dasha]

Thanks for the responses.

I understand the usefulness of having multiple reinforces, but in order for it to be a reinforcer, the dog needs to feel reinforced by it in order to increase the likelihood of the dog repeating the behaviour.

Like I said, I know there are some dogs and situations that tug is more appropriate than food and vice versa.

One of my dogs LOVES food and is primarily rewarded with food. At times, she feels playful and will offer a toy for a game. Sometimes it is a light tug, sometimes its just the "see if you can touch it" game. She gives great results with food but is NOT rewarded by play as a reward as she doesn't find it rewarding.

One of my other dogs LOVES toys. She loves to tug, catch, fetch, or simply parade it and try to get me to get it off her.Each dog has its own preferred game. I feel as a handler, the reward for the dog should be what the dog wants. So it gets varied then anyway. I let my dog decide the way it wants to use the toy.

The pups are getting their food drive increased at present as well as their tug games. One in particular is not toy interested yet. He just wants to please and get attention but does love his food too.

Food can be varied. It can sometimes be some tasty meat chunks, other times a kibble, cheese, schmacko or whatever is around. You can jackpot for good performance and vary the presentation of the food to increase your reinforcers for a food motivated dog.

[corvus]

Dogs generally won't unless you teach them. It's like changing tracks. It's not really natural for them to go from food to tug and back to food. The two use brain pathways that are thought to be antagonistic to one another. They have to learn how to do it and then it becomes easy for them same as anything they are taught how to do.

He loves both, I just know that his favourite is food. If you saw him with a ball or with a tug, though - you would swear that he loved them more than anything! He tugs with a lot of intensity but food is his number #1 love.

Drivey dogs in theory are meant to be drivey about a lot of things. Erik is like that. He'll throw everything he has into earning a food reward, and he'll throw everything he has into earning a tug. Sometimes I think the rewards are not nearly as good to him as the process of earning rewards.

Kivi's favourite is food as well. He still tugs around food, though. A wee bit tough to teach him, but I just shaped it and we got there.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think it's good to have both.

Having good tug, you don't run out of tug and the dog doesn't get full on tug, though she might get tired.

I find rewarding some things with food problematic ie my dog stops to eat the food and then search for crumbs and eat those, and it slows down something I want to be done fast. Where as the tug encourages her to run and stay energised.

But for some things where I do want her to slow down, food is great.

[Kavik]

I am one of those people trying to get a good tug on my dog :D

I have been training using a thrown toy and food. Which in general has worked well, but I have had a few issues with Kaos running off in trials. Tug is about engaging with the handler in play, and tug is a relationship game, so I'm hoping that fixing our tug game will help our relationship, and engaging with me with help in agility. Certainly there are aspects of our current tug game which show gaps in our relationship which need fixing - his possession of the tug and not bringing it back straight away (tends to play keep away - main things we are fixing atm) = not wanting to engage with me, not wanting to play in all environments/in the presence of other reinforcers/distractions (don't wanna, don't hafta, and choosing to leave training).

ETA: Also, tug would allow me to have a toy/play reward at the end of a run in trials. You can't throw a toy at the end of a run in an agility trial (though I can at training), and at the moment I give a food reward then go find somewhere to throw the toy, but this results in a time delay in rewarding which is not ideal.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Kavik

[gsdog2]

The pups are getting their food drive increased at present as well as their tug games. One in particular is not toy interested yet. He just wants to please and get attention but does love his food too.

I think it's quite common that pups will have a higher drive for food. I have a Military Working Dog foster pup at the moment (so high drive) who will do anything for a piece of his kibble, however the drive for both the ball and tug are now increasing (he's 5mths old) to a much higher drive than for food.

I like to use food with my ball-driven German Shepherd when I'm teaching her something new and then use the ball when I want her to pick up speed

[Staranais]

I would not again buy a dog that I didn't expect to have genetically high prey drive, so this question is unlikely to be a problem for me again. I would not personally want a working or competition prospect that did not tug well from the word go.

However, if I ever do adopt a dog with high prey drive but no tug drive, I would try to develop the tug drive as a way to channel and control that prey drive. If a dog has truly high prey drive, then IMO they want (need) to express it somehow. And I would rather the dog targets that prey drive towards something I can control rather than something that is out of my control or socially unacceptable. This is the situation I had with my last dog. When I adopted him he showed hugely predatory behaviour towards cats and other dogs. We taught him how to tug and gave him ample opportunities to earn his tug, which provided him with an acceptable prey drive outlet when I began to make it clear to him that killing cats and mauling other dogs was not acceptable. It wasn't the whole answer, but I think it did help him.

However, if I ever adopted a dog with really great drive for food and no desire for prey, I probably wouldn't bother to develop the tug drive further, since I could already control that dog's primary motivator.

[dasha]

Thanks for that Staranias.

My dogs are high drive working dogs so they already have good prey drive so I do enjoy developing it to be able to use it, however I do have one that is definatley a food dog and so I will leave her as a food dog as I can't really see the point in trying to change from what she wants as a primary motivator.

I guess that was my point, to see if people have a dog that prefers food over play, why they wouldn't mainly develop that initial natural drive.

I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to use different methods of reward to suit the dog, not try to mould the dog into liking something YOU think it should if you get what I mean.

Anyway, thanks for the replies people. Keep them coming

[aussielover]

Thanks for that Staranias.

My dogs are high drive working dogs so they already have good prey drive so I do enjoy developing it to be able to use it, however I do have one that is definatley a food dog and so I will leave her as a food dog as I can't really see the point in trying to change from what she wants as a primary motivator.

I guess that was my point, to see if people have a dog that prefers food over play, why they wouldn't mainly develop that initial natural drive.

I think trainers should be skilled enough to be able to use different methods of reward to suit the dog, not try to mould the dog into liking something YOU think it should if you get what I mean.

Anyway, thanks for the replies people. Keep them coming

True- absolutely agree.

I also don't understand why agility people in particular- think that a dog MUST take a tug as a reward.

With reagrd to working dogs- I always thought the reward was in being allowed to work- particularly for herding dogs?

[Staranais]

With reagrd to working dogs- I always thought the reward was in being allowed to work- particularly for herding dogs?

Not for my working dog! She loves to work, don't get me wrong - running through the woods like a fruit loop while looking for things is hugely fun for her. But the ultimate reward is the tug game. It has to be that way so she is under control - so she follows my directions while working, and so she only hunts for what I want to hunt, since she knows this is the best chance of getting her ultimate reward. That's the theory, anyway!

If working was the ultimate reward (not tugging), then the problem is that the dog can self reward just by working. So to get control, you then tend to have to use rather a lot of punishment - either compulsion/positive punishment to make bad behaviours unattractive, or somehow find a way to prevent the dog working when it does the wrong thing (rather tricky with a dog that works up to a km away from me).

What you say is probably true for many working dogs, but I don't think you can generalise to all of them.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Staranais