Breeding A Duty Of Care

[Teebs]

http://www.centralwesterndaily.com.au/news/local/news/general/breeding-a-duty-of-care/2299820.aspx

AS the Orange RSPCA struggles to house thousands of unwanted dogs, one local dog expert is calling on breeders to adopt a code of ethics in an effort to end puppy farming.

Don Mahoney, who has been showing, breeding and judging dogs for 40 years, told the Central Western Daily that he’d like to put an end to “unqualified breeders”.

“There are various sorts of puppy farms and that’s why I’d like to see anyone who breeds dogs bound by a code of ethics,” he said.

“[The code would ensure] they had knowledge of animal husbandry; they should be bound by it just as all people who breed pedigree dogs are bound by it.”

Mr Mahoney said dog breeders had a duty of care to ensure all of the pups they sold or gave away go to good homes.

“They need to make sure the dog is adequately fenced and be confident that the new owner is equipped financially to handle the vet costs and the costs of feeding and caring for a dog,” he said.

“I’ve seen what happens when not enough care is taken in finding a dog a home.”

Mr Mahoney said he always encouraged dog owners who were not breeders to have their dogs desexed, and he wouldn’t sell a dog to anyone who didn’t commit to having their dog desexed.

[Steve]

However, state laws and codes are more restrictive than any CC's and all people who breed a dog in NSW are supposed to be operating under them.

And - when others start a group which gives those who dont want to be or who cant be ANKC they get beaten up.

[toy*dog]

they'll just argue they are bound by a code of ethics (practice) set by the government anyway. thats not a strong point either.

The animal people are saying most puppy farms aren't clean. but the industry giants would argue with that and also councils who claim that they go and inspect, but.....i said do you go and do a surprise call? yes was the answer and we found animals in good condtion meeting all requirements of the law. DPI also told me that too. so this is all the govt is interested in so from their point of view there is no need to close these places down, there is no problem at all .

what a shame he couldn't plug the angle of genetic health issues with crosses becasue people dont know what they are breeding, and unknown parentage adds to health problems. and how predicable a well bred and adjusted pedigree is.

but its good someone is coming out and saying something at least.

[Steve]

they'll just argue they are bound by a code of ethics (practice) set by the government anyway. thats not a strong point either.

The animal people are saying most puppy farms aren't clean. but the industry giants would argue with that and also councils who claim that they go and inspect, but.....i said do you go and do a surprise call? yes was the answer and we found animals in good condtion meeting all requirements of the law. DPI also told me that too. so this is all the govt is interested in so from their point of view there is no need to close these places down, there is no problem at all .

what a shame he couldn't plug the angle of genetic health issues with crosses becasue people dont know what they are breeding, and unknown parentage adds to health problems. and how predicable a well bred and adjusted pedigree is.

but its good someone is coming out and saying something at least.

But Toy Dog most them are no problem.Most of them are clean and there are no problems.Its just now and then one turns up thats rotten and its used to try to paint all places with the same brush.

[toy*dog]

i have to be really careful how i word this but for me and probably for others, as we all know, that really animal welfare are painting a different picture and its not really washing with the govt departments is it, they claim animal rights that the govt won't listen to them. some of us here have not woken up yet!!!

i mean last night on the 7pm news item about puppy farms they interviewed oscar law and they said that ALL the farms that she's been too, ALL of the farms have been quite disgusting. so they are painting it very different to what it probably is out there. Govt, councils and DPI say that they do monitor they are going to take a look and do quite regularly and they aren't finding what these animal rights people do find. a farm that keeps getting raided and is always in the news has said in the media that they are different and have had cameras in their place and it looks clean and tidy from the outside yet animal rights people are still painting a different picture entirely.

so this point works on the public to gain momentum and i spose this is their angle these groups to gain people to the cause then lobby the govt with the volume of people and its getting attention but still govt are not taking any notice really are they. but in reality they want to get the people to petition the govt with that methodology the govt just don't take the concerns of the animal rights and publics seriously and now i know why. i came up against that, trying to talk to a mayor in amongst people emailing from the public and animal rights at the healm and mayor thinking i am one of the "nutters" i think he put it . i had to point out i am not in this group they kept telling me the animal rights people that they couldn't get to the mayor so i tried, i told him i am a concerned citizen wanting a talk so he did talk to me then with a sigh of relief and he did listen which was great, and i hope that he takes the info he gained from me away with him and tells his peers, i can only hope. i got to put all my points across my concerns about large volume commercial breeders. we had a nice pleasant exchange, thats all that MP's govt officials need. some of us to go to them raise our concerns and talk some sense instead of i suppose yelling and screaming and demanding that things should go this way or that way.

so really no, there is, 80% of the time no problem in terms of care in these large commercial places but we all know that for our domestic pets of today its not really a good option for society to be headed to get their next pet from these sorts of places and i am meaning battery hen type places that have patoodlematoodlespoodles (my favourite word for the day).

Edited September 23, 2011 by toy*dog

[Rysup]

I guess its a big matter of opinion too.

I saw some photos posted on Facebook the other day and everyone was jumping up and down and saying how disgusting these "whelping kennels" were. Yet I saw clean, concrete runs. Sure the dogs didnt have soft beds, or toys, or cushy laps, but they were clean, had food and water, and the ones with puppies had pig lamps. Not ideal, and I'd never whelp a litter in a kennel environment, but still, they were clean and appeared well looked after. So who decides? Not every litter gets born and raised beside the bed. To please the masses, they would have to outlaw kennels having litters out of the house?

[WreckitWhippet]

I guess its a big matter of opinion too.

I saw some photos posted on Facebook the other day and everyone was jumping up and down and saying how disgusting these "whelping kennels" were. Yet I saw clean, concrete runs. Sure the dogs didnt have soft beds, or toys, or cushy laps, but they were clean, had food and water, and the ones with puppies had pig lamps. Not ideal, and I'd never whelp a litter in a kennel environment, but still, they were clean and appeared well looked after. So who decides? Not every litter gets born and raised beside the bed. To please the masses, they would have to outlaw kennels having litters out of the house?

All good except, we can't actually whelp them in the house now.

I wouldn't choose to whelp and raise pups in kennels, but there are breeders that do so and they produde the highest quality of pups, the kennels are immaculate and the dogs recieve the love and care they need.

Either way we're screwed

[KatrinaM]

But remember, if your doing the right thing youve got nothing to worry about.

[Steve]

The minute they changed it from people who breed dogs in sub standard conditions to a go after commercial breeders they lost. The more they carry on about how rotten commercial breeders ar the more they make it more difficult for everyone who wants to breed a dog.

The fact is breeders dont want to keep their dogs in kennels on concrete floors but look at the codes and the crap they push and they come in and find a dog in an enclosure thats had the bloody hide to dig a hole and its a breach of the codes and laws.

There is one ranger who takes photos of a couple of dogs in big yards to prove the breeders are not following the codes. We have spoken with one breeder who has to paint the floors of her pens every 12 weeks or so because the council say the concrete isnt sealed enough. She doesnt want her dogs even in the pens she tells us it is causing her dogs to have leg and feet problems.

I have a whelping room which cost me 80,000 dollars plus which my dogs have never whelped in. I have a grooming room - Ive never groomed a dog in.I have a shower room in case I ever have staff which has been used twice when the hot water system in the house blew up.I have special septic systems. I have a fully tiled and sealed quarantine area Ive never used. I have a separate laundry which I do use as it has a washing machine in it which I use to wash my dogs stuff rather than the one in my laundry and the hot water in that area is hotter than the house to kill germs. The only thing other than this that area is used for is storage for Pacers.

I have special worm farms for poo , and special landscaping to prevent noise escaping, I have special rain water tanks and town water in a kitchen - beautiful- Ive never used which is almost as nice as the one in the house.

the area is climate controlled with sealed floors and has hot water hoses. I have a parking area no one has ever parked a car in.

I have dog pens which are 60 feet x 15 feet which the dogs are only in if I have visitors and they are positioned so the dogs in one cant see the dogs in another because council told us that if they could see each other it would create a noise issue. My closest neighbour is 3 kilometres away.

All of this for 9 beagles some of which are in their late teens and too old to breed and 8 Maremma which work the sheep and are out in the paddocks except one which is with me and the beagles all day. Ive had 3 litters this year and not one of them has seen inside that whelping room.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Steve

[BJean]

The minute they changed it from people who breed dogs in sub standard conditions to a go after commercial breeders they lost. The more they carry on about how rotten commercial breeders ar the more they make it more difficult for everyone who wants to breed a dog.

The fact is breeders dont want to keep their dogs in kennels on concrete floors but look at the codes and the crap they push and they come in and find a dog in an enclosure thats had the bloody hide to dig a hole and its a breach of the codes and laws.

And most of them who push the crap

dont own more than one or two dogs (if)

and/or their knowledge on dogs in general is limited to their own ownership (if any) and vet experience.

[Horse2008]

I have spoken to Debra Tranter. She was fully in favor of every home having the two or 3 dogs that the law allows. I did say there are some people I wouldn't trust to have one dog, and I asked about permits for people who can cope with more dogs. She told me that in the few months that the councils thinking about the application, people are actually breaking the law, and she feels ok to tell the police and the RSPCA about it and get the person arrested.

She thinks the pet limits stop hoarders, but hoarders don't care what the law says, pet limits only hurt those with the presence of mind to follow them.

[Steve]

I have spoken to Debra Tranter. She was fully in favor of every home having the two or 3 dogs that the law allows. I did say there are some people I wouldn't trust to have one dog, and I asked about permits for people who can cope with more dogs. She told me that in the few months that the councils thinking about the application, people are actually breaking the law, and she feels ok to tell the police and the RSPCA about it and get the person arrested.

She thinks the pet limits stop hoarders, but hoarders don't care what the law says, pet limits only hurt those with the presence of mind to follow them.

Most pet owners say that they consider their pets as part of the family, but animal control laws like this treat the entire pet-owning community as the problem and their pets as disposable commodities which can simply be moved out to a pound if there is one too many or as nuisances. When she calls the police and has them charged what does she intend to have done with the dogs which can no longer live with their owners – Oh that's right "rescue them"

Instead of defending the values of responsible pet owners, andresponsible breeders they want to load us with unenforceable crap that actually threaten an owner's sense ofsecurity and convert otherwise responsible citizens into seeing them as scofflaws,driving them underground for fear of being found in violation of the law or publicly castigated even if not guilty all over the net.

Number limits are oftencited as a means to prevent the hoarding but this problem can only be solved by enforcement of current laws

Edited September 24, 2011 by Steve

[KatrinaM]

Why isn't every dog owner terrified of people like Debra - she obviously doesn't like dogs much at all. Imagine if anybody was told to pick two of there children to keep, the rest will be handed to the authorities to do as they see fit or somebody will break into your house and steal them....... Dogs are pseudo family for so many people, how devastating would that idea be? The current laws aren't enforced, how could the introduction of new ones like this not be a hit and miss implementation??

[Clyde]

She told me that in the few months that the councils thinking about the application, people are actually breaking the law, and she feels ok to tell the police and the RSPCA about it and get the person arrested.

I doubt people will get arrested for having extra dogs. Fined and cautioned sure, but arrested - not worth their time.

[raz]

I have spoken to Debra Tranter. She was fully in favor of every home having the two or 3 dogs that the law allows. I did say there are some people I wouldn't trust to have one dog, and I asked about permits for people who can cope with more dogs. She told me that in the few months that the councils thinking about the application, people are actually breaking the law, and she feels ok to tell the police and the RSPCA about it and get the person arrested.

She thinks the pet limits stop hoarders, but hoarders don't care what the law says, pet limits only hurt those with the presence of mind to follow them.

Pull the other one and it'll play jinglebells, Horse.

[Steve]

Why isn't every dog owner terrified of people like Debra - she obviously doesn't like dogs much at all. Imagine if anybody was told to pick two of there children to keep, the rest will be handed to the authorities to do as they see fit or somebody will break into your house and steal them....... Dogs are pseudo family for so many people, how devastating would that idea be? The current laws aren't enforced, how could the introduction of new ones like this not be a hit and miss implementation??

Debra Tranter was until recently heavily involved with Animal Liberation Victoria.

Someone may know why she resigned and is no longer a member however, its interesting that ALV have had some issues with RSPCA Victoria – for example

On 4 September 2006, ALV sent a letter to Dr Hugh Wirth, RSPCA Victoria's President, asking them to turn to strict vegetarianism their RSPCA Annual Gala Ball, as made the RSPCA UK. RPSCA Chief Executive Officer, Maria Mercurio, wrote the reply in which they refused. Among other criticisms, Mercurio said:

"We know that ALV will continue to attend RSPCA events in Victoria and target our staff, volunteers and guests. We are continually asked why ALV don't hold their own events if they truly wish to get wide attention for their issues; why don't they lobby governments and why don't they try to influence industry, instead of targeting the RSPCA?"

ALV has also criticed that while RSPCA says it's against the battery cages, they business with the largest battery egg producer in Australia, Pace Farms. They have also accused RSPCA of approve barnlaid sheds of which ALV claim to have documented later "overcrowding, beak mutilations, lack of perches, prevention of roosting, chronic stress and electric shock training to the hens", among many other criticism

It would however, appear that Oscars law is pretty snuggly with RSPCA Victoria. In fact some of their website looks like it came straight from Oscars Law they even use the same photos and their definitions of what is a puppy farmer lines up more with Oscars Law than RSPCA Australia.

Animal Liberation Victoria's STATEMENT OF PURPOSES are as follows:

1. TO ABOLISH THE PROPERTY STATUS OF ANIMALS

Animal Liberation Victoria endorses an animal rights position which maintains that all sentient beings, regardless of species, have the right to be treated as independent entities, and not as the property of others.

2. TO ABOLISH, AND NOT MERELY REGULATE, INSTITUTIONLISED ANIMAL EXPLOITATION

Animal Liberation Victoria supports only those campaigns and positions that explicitly promote the abolitionist agenda, placing primary emphasis on animals in factory farms and abattoirs. We recognise we will not abolish animal exploitation and the property status of animals overnight, but will encourage at all times the adoption of a vegan lifestyle as the most appropriate course to achieve these aims.

3. TO ABOLISH HUMAN'S SPECIEST ATTITUDES AND PRACTICES

Just as we reject racism, sexism, ageism and homophobia, we reject speciesism. The species of sentient beings is no more a reason to deny any individual the basic right not to be the property of others, than is race, sex, age or sexual orientation a reason to deny membership in the moral community to other humans.

4. TO ENCOURAGE AND NURTURE ANIMAL RIGHTS EDUCATION

Animal Liberation Victoria commits itself to public education concerning the rights of animals and the importance of defending any other animal whose language communication is different to our own, and who are thus unable to 'speak' for themselves.

5. TO ENDORSE THE PRINCIPLE OF NON-VIOLENCE

All campaigns and positions of Animal Liberation Victoria use non-violence as their guiding principle and rule of operation. Our work fosters giving aid and rescue to any animal who is suffering in pain and left unattended.

[toy*dog]

so oscar law people are going to dictate that you can only have a certain number and if you go over that number you are a criminal! i mean they are saying reg breeders are not in that and they are making reg breeders believe they can breathe a sigh of relief but i can quite clearly see that they are also going after reg breeders too now. so if you own over 3 say, they can quite easily come into your property under the umbrella "rescuing" then take them and make everyone else believe you are a puppy farmer. i think their actual mentality is everyone that breeds now is a "puppy farmer" its a term that is getting thrown around way too much now.

i really think that they trust no one that says they are a breeder, i have personal experience with this having conversations.

it scared me to crap. It is looking like they want to stop all breeding altogether!

what about breeders like us who have more than 2 dogs on a permit and they are raised as our family pets in our homes? according to them a person like this does not exist we are all lying cheating and cruel to our animals.

so one reg breeder dobs in another reg breeder as i witnessed not long ago to these people and then they turn on them its just a matter of time.

what bothered me the most was a reg breeder of toys who had a sickly looking little dog, you could quite easily see the dog had either hydrocephalus or low sugar drop but according to the animal people this breeder was cruel and kept it away from other dogs on the premises in a pen. this is what you are supposed to do with these kinds of sick dogs. you do not make them like that they are born this way and there's nothing you can do except try to look after it as we had one like this. it looks like they are starved but in actual fact (after seeing countless vets to try to fix my little dog) they cannot keep any body weight on.

so a picture is put up of this poor little dog and the reg breeder was called cruel and a puppy farmer and it was one dog. i said to other breeders this dog is suffering from this and they look like that but everyone agreed with the animal libs as many did not know what they were looking at not being in the breed all that long. even some that have been in the breed a long time have not bred many litters so also do not know what they are looking at either.

But this breeder keeps their dogs in the exact conditions that the law dictates! in concrete kennels and the council knew about it and was monitoring it all.

this is why we are saying in closing down "puppy Farms" we are also rallying for the reputable reg breeders to kill them off as well i feel. reputable reg breeders are being bung in on all of this goings on.

Edited September 27, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

Not much different when they hold up a young pup with cherry eye - which cant be treated until the pup is older Like as if the breeder deliberately made the cherry eye or is deliberately not getting treament for it .

Perhaps you are supposed to get the vet to kill anything that might make you look bad before they get there.

The beagle sleeping in the bread crate made me smile when it was used to show some terrible sin because I had one once who slept in a bread crate because she ate everything else we gave her to sleep in.

We tried everything and even had her in surgery when we gave her one of those tramp beds with shade cloth stuff on it because the threads wrapped around her intestine. She would shred a bed over night but now I know the bread crate makes you look bad Im glad she doesnt live here any more. Better let her new owners know to chuck out the bread crate too.

[toy*dog]

Not much different when they hold up a young pup with cherry eye - which cant be treated until the pup is older Like as if the breeder deliberately made the cherry eye or is deliberately not getting treament for it .

Perhaps you are supposed to get the vet to kill anything that might make you look bad before they get there.

no way am i going to PTS any dog not unless it is really suffering if i can fix it or keep the dog happy then it will live. as in the case with the hydro puppy i had. he is now in a wonderful home with a very experienced lady and is loved and cared for just like we did for him. he was happy and kept fed and warm and his every need was attended to. i was worried about that so i asked my vet do you think i could be dobbed into the RSPCA he said, no because you have gotten veterinary assistance on a number of occassions with receipts so they haven't got a case against me he wreckons.

Edited September 27, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

Not much different when they hold up a young pup with cherry eye - which cant be treated until the pup is older Like as if the breeder deliberately made the cherry eye or is deliberately not getting treament for it .

Perhaps you are supposed to get the vet to kill anything that might make you look bad before they get there.

no way am i going to PTS any dog not unless it is really suffering if i can fix it or keep the dog happy then it will live. as in the case with the hydro puppy i had. he is now in a wonderful home with a very experienced lady and is loved and cared for just like we did for him. he was happy and kept fed and warm and his every need was attended to. i was worried about that so i asked my vet do you think i could be dobbed into the RSPCA he said, no because you have gotten veterinary assistance on a number of occassions with receipts so they haven't got a case against me he wreckons.

I dont think they care whether the dog has been treated or not when they put your photos up on the net . That may be why some look bad but are cleared when the real people charged with checking this stuff out take a better look but you wouldnt hear that - its just look at this terrible thing .