Was I Too Harsh?

[Keira&Phoenix]

OK, Please tell us how all of you folks managed to attain your first show/breeding dog ???

The numbers of dog club memberships are falling, they all require new memberships and new exhibitors at shows.

Why not take just a little time to talk to these people instead of simply judging them via e-mail, you may just be surprised???

I think the OP discounted them because a) they said they were not going to use the dog for showing and b) they indicated that they knew nothing about the breed and provided no reason for wanting that particular breed.

If you want to become a show/breeder then you research the breed before you start looking to buy.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

NuggyWWB

I think your emails have served their purpose. Blunt or not, I wouldn't want an undesexed puppy to go to this family. They clearly don't think long term about the welfare of their dog or potenial puppies. I would have ignored the "judgemental" email. Personally I like blunt and direct. If I still wanted to breed from one of your puppies I would be asking myself and you what it would take, not calling you "judgemental". Actually when it comes to who gets a puppy, we could use a lot more judgemental.

However, you could possibly offer a more open conversation with a view to converting them. Ie the questions about breeding need to be redone or phrased as an invite for further discussion at a dog show or similar. And you could blame your state kennel club ethics and the RSPCA responsible dog breeder list for excluding them unless they're willing to learn more about your breed and responsible breeding generally.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-a-responsible-companion-animal-breeder_327.html

I'm not very good at diplomatic or tactful either, maybe it's better not to pretend. Or maybe the more thoughtful DOLERs could help reword the original set of questions or response so it allows the potential owner to think about whether they can offer the right stuff and save face (not appear completely ignorant about responsible breeding).

Ie maybe an invite to the next dog show so you can talk about what goes into breeding a quality dog and choosing (and educating) potential puppy owners about the care requirements specific to your breed so your beautiful puppy won't end up at the pound. If they choose not to come then your owner selection process has served its purpose again.

It may also help to have a collection of links to send about responsible ownership/breeding, the dog star digital training text book, getting a dog or puppy from rescue if they don't care what they get, and links to the code of ethics for breeders and some stuff about puppy farms and where pound dogs come from and something about the myth of having a litter from a veterinary association. But only send if you ask them if they'd be interested in further info and they say yes.

So I think I would ask why they have chosen your breed - first. But I would also put in the general care and training requirements and the whys and ask if they are prepared to do that. And also mention puppy bad habits eg chewing and digging everything and ask if they can tolerate that for the first however long it takes your breed to grow up, or forever for some breeds.

And I think if they answered yes to want to breed - then you need to invite them to have a face to face conversation with you or a breeder you trust in their state (who doesn't have any puppies available right now).

If they say no to breeding then say the cost is x plus the cost of desexing which will be refunded when they provide a letter from their vet saying it's done or as someone else said - desex before you adopt them depending on what else they want the dog for. Eg dog sports - there is some evidence to suggest that desexing after 18 months or so is best for allowing normal bone development.

My dog was desexed at 8 weeks by AWL and so far so good, she does agility well with no injury, touch wood.

[cowanbree]

I get enquiries like this all of the time and to be honest I would have just said I don't have anything suitable to be bred from available and left it at that. This is for 2 reasons firstly they may well come back and say it wasn't that important to them and they will desex but also because if they are serious about breeding your response has trained them what not to say to the next breeder they e-mail.

[Mags]

Sounds perfectly polite and reasonable to me.

My thoughts also.

And to me. And even if some think it judgemental you have every right to be judgemental when it comes to placing a puppy in a pet home. You bred it you get to decide what constitutes an acceptable home for it. Don't think I would have bothered responding to their judgemental comments though. Don't breed dogs but do breed cats (registered breeder of Maine Coons) and all pets leave here desexed no exceptions - makes it really easy. Aware that its not that easy with dogs and do wish you luck as once they leave home you have absolutely no control over what the new owner will do with them. The best you can hope is they will ring you if it all goes pear shaped.

[loveretrievers]

I think your role as a breeder should be to educate the public not offend. They will now most likely not contact another breeder and will be on the puppy farm sites, looking up bybers and or pet shops because it gets too hard to go through a breeder.

Sorry but you can't expect the public to change if your not willing to help make that change.

[loveretrievers]

I get enquiries like this all of the time and to be honest I would have just said I don't have anything suitable to be bred from available and left it at that. This is for 2 reasons firstly they may well come back and say it wasn't that important to them and they will desex but also because if they are serious about breeding your response has trained them what not to say to the next breeder they e-mail.

Very much agreed

[Dogsfevr]

Why not keep it simple and to the point? ;

All pet pups are sold with a desexing contract and must not be bred from.

That said, how do you enforce a desexing contract? You can screen your buyers. You can offer an incentive (ie, refund on proof of desexing), but you can't force an owner to desex or stop them from breeding the dog once they have it. Why not desex the pups before they go if you feel that strongly about it?

We do the above & in 25 yrs of breeding have a 100% success rate so its easily done .

We also refund a price once done .

All prospective puppy owners are told this during first inquiries so they know where they stand & no confusion as they OP has had.

If people still wish to talk breeding then we can go into detail of what we expect from any of our dogs being breed from ie Health testing again all easy to enforce if you do it with passion & understanding & keep it simple.

The keen ones suddenly realize that is isn't simple & appreciate the time spent ,the fly by nights will breed no matter what without any thought with what they may produce just to have "that litter".

As our breed is highly sort after by DD.BYB & exporters we spay all our stock & have no issues enforcing any contract if need be but haven't had to as yet

[Dju]

Why not keep it simple and to the point? ;

All pet pups are sold with a desexing contract and must not be bred from.

That said, how do you enforce a desexing contract? You can screen your buyers. You can offer an incentive (ie, refund on proof of desexing), but you can't force an owner to desex or stop them from breeding the dog once they have it. Why not desex the pups before they go if you feel that strongly about it?

We do the above & in 25 yrs of breeding have a 100% success rate so its easily done .

We also refund a price once done .

All prospective puppy owners are told this during first inquiries so they know where they stand & no confusion as they OP has had.

If people still wish to talk breeding then we can go into detail of what we expect from any of our dogs being breed from ie Health testing again all easy to enforce if you do it with passion & understanding & keep it simple.

The keen ones suddenly realize that is isn't simple & appreciate the time spent ,the fly by nights will breed no matter what without any thought with what they may produce just to have "that litter".

As our breed is highly sort after by DD.BYB & exporters we spay all our stock & have no issues enforcing any contract if need be but haven't had to as yet

Can't the owner of the dog be taken to court if they don't obey the desexing contract?

[NuggyWuggy]

Just to give a little more information, before people begin to fill in the form on my website, it is explained to them that the pup MUST be desexed at six months of age and it CANNOT be bred - this is also stated elsewhere on my site....I also offer people the option of stating that they want the pup as a family pet, but would like to begin showing/breeding etc. I also explain to them the purpose of the form.

Now, based on feedback here, I have also added that if people would like to get involved in these things I will be happy to assist.

I don't just leave contact with people filling in a form, this is just the beginning...

[Sandra777]

How did I get my first show dog?

I looked in the newspaper, phoned up about a pup and brought him home. No contracts, no joint ownership, no drama.

The breeders weren't hugely experienced but were part of a network of people all working together so had plenty of resources to fall back on and use to guide me.

They later gave me my foundation bitch with a verbal agreement which was upheld in part, but by the time it came to fulfilling the second part of the agreement they had lost interest in the breed and were happy for me to have her outright and do as I wished (with the guidance of others in their group).

[mita]

I think you offered comprehensive information to back what you'd already said on your website anyway. So good on you.

Having said that, I'm amazed by the number of pet people I've come across, who've got a purebred puppy (on a promise to get desexed), and then say something like, 'He/she is so gorgeous that it'd be a shame not to let him/her sire/have one litter of puppies.' So there would have to be a convincing case made, in an attempt to persuade those people to think/do otherwise.

The one positive thing is that the person who responded to you, was honest about their intentions in their reply It would have been just as easy for someone to go along with your statement about getting the pup desexed...& then just do what they wanted anyway. So at least, you were given the opportunity to make your case.

[JulesP]

I just think that the average person doesn't understand. You need to tell them the whys. They just think how nice it would be to have pups, great experience for the kids, cool if we make some cash.

I had about 4 people in my last puppy class express interest in breeding with their dogs. I happily told them my experience of breeding (c-section, nearly lost dog etc) which did help remove the rose coloured glasses.

[Red Fox]

We do the above & in 25 yrs of breeding have a 100% success rate so its easily done .

We also refund a price once done .

All prospective puppy owners are told this during first inquiries so they know where they stand & no confusion as they OP has had.

If people still wish to talk breeding then we can go into detail of what we expect from any of our dogs being breed from ie Health testing again all easy to enforce if you do it with passion & understanding & keep it simple.

The keen ones suddenly realize that is isn't simple & appreciate the time spent ,the fly by nights will breed no matter what without any thought with what they may produce just to have "that litter".

As our breed is highly sort after by DD.BYB & exporters we spay all our stock & have no issues enforcing any contract if need be but haven't had to as yet

So in 25 years of breeding you've never had anyone agree to the contract then not follow through with desexing? How would you 'enforce a contract'? What if the buyer wished to leave a dog entire and NOT breed? Or wanted to allow the dog to mature before desexing?

There are multiple reasons why a person may not want to desex their dog, breeding is only one of them.

[LizT]

Sorry but I think the reply is too harsh. The general public know what they have been brought up to beleive about dogs and the reality needs to be explained to them in a way that they don't feel that they are being attacked personally. Some very good breeders of many years standing, that I know, started off with the same idea as these buyers. Carefully educated by experienced breeders they managed to buy a good bitch, breed a good litter, get the show bug and go on to become dedicated breeders. Everyone has to start somewhere and most breeders do not start out with the intention of being breeders.

Maybe they did just want to have a litter under the mistaken impression that they could get their money back plus more, but you will never know one way or the other now.

You could possibly have replied with the opening line of

"I will not sell entire puppies to pet homes and do require a desexing contract to such homes. However, I will give consideration to someone interested in learning about the breed and contributing to the betterment of the breed by underaking some education, mentoring about the breed ,becoming a registered breeder who health tests both parents and pups etc. etc. I am happy to discuss or explain any of these details with you."

I did like your expanation of why you choose to do this.

[Lindainfa]

Sounds perfectly polite and reasonable to me.

X2!

[Bluefairy]

I agree with the OP. I like the reply by them, it was matter of fact, not pushy or over the top. It was noted very clearly why she would not be selling a pup to this buyer.

As a buyer, if I received this email, I would think about where I went wrong and what I said. But in no way would it put me off going to another breeder and asking the same things, or rewording my request with the next one.

I cannot see how the OP emails could have put a buyer off from buying from a breeder and maybe going somewhere not so nice....puppy mill, BYB, etc. If this was my first experience in applying for a pup then I would be either thinking more about my emails or about what the breeders are after, I'd also come in to a dog forum and ask people what I should be asking or saying.

When I first started buying puppies through the internet, I had no idea what I needed to say ~ like where the puppy will live, about me and my family, what kinda of temperament I was after, what I know about the breed, etc etc. I know now from all the breeders that emailed back, and their replies asking for more info, some were really nice and explained things, others I have had not good a reply....but those ones I cross off my list of specific breeders. Their loss not mine.

I do heaps of research and home work....after all as a buyer I want to know the puppy I get is in the best of health, looked after - socialising etc, and that I am going to be happy paying all this money for what I want. It goes both ways, the breeder wants whats best for their puppy, and the buyer wants whats best for them.

Lynn

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

"I will not sell entire puppies to pet homes and do require a desexing contract to such homes. However, I will give consideration to someone interested in learning about the breed and contributing to the betterment of the breed by underaking some education, mentoring about the breed ,becoming a registered breeder who health tests both parents and pups etc. etc. I am happy to discuss or explain any of these details with you."

I like this, but I would add why desexing pets is important, eg helps reduce the chance of being stolen for puppy mills and reduces the chances of diseases of the reproductive systems.

[suziwong66]

I think your role as a breeder should be to educate the public not offend. They will now most likely not contact another breeder and will be on the puppy farm sites, looking up bybers and or pet shops because it gets too hard to go through a breeder.

Sorry but you can't expect the public to change if your not willing to help make that change.

I think you make a relevant point here. I would expect/assume that quality breeders want the best for their breed and education would be one aspect of achieving this; being blunt and judgemental doesn't open the channels of communication to educate...as you say, it can have the opposite desired effect; sending people to the very outlets that don't protect breed quality.

Every time someone enquires about a puppy it's an opportunity for a breeder to choose the type of outcome they desire e.g. an opportunity to inform, an opportunity to mentor, an opportunity to begin developing a positive relationship with a prospective puppy owner etc The delivery of information is just as important as the content of the information and thus a positive interaction rather than a didactic judgemental interaction may have been better in terms of outcomes i.e. prospective buyer may have made better decisions regarding their intent.

As a buyer, i have walked away from didactic, brash breeders who have no clue about developing positive, sustainable relationships. For me, if i can't have a respectful, friendly, quality relationship with the breeder then i won't buy puppies from them. This is because i believe that it is in the puppy's best interest for me to have a good, open and friendly relationship where i feel i have an ally in raising the best puppy possible.

The breeder i eventually chose, was very conscious about they way she chose to interact with prospective buyers; she was initially and is still incredibly respectful, open, and friendly. The information she imparts isn't just thrown at me but rather, gently offered so that i can consider it thoughtfully. A good mentor/leader isn't a didactic autocrat. Instead, the best leader guides rather than dominates.

Edited September 21, 2011 by suziwong66

[Kajtek]

Fantastic response Nuggywuggywazabear.

Based on your response I would stand quietly in the line to get a puppy from you.

(PS I am just your garden variety pet parent and all my furry kids are desexed.)

Edited September 21, 2011 by HonBun

[NuggyWuggy]

Well thanks to everyone for the feedback. The constructive criticism was helpful, though it's nice to see that some of you like my original response

It's hard to find a balance I think - if you don't reply you are rude, if you reply but don't explain your reasons you are unfair, and if you reply and explain your reasons you are judgemental.