Bootcamp Style Dog Training

[ludwig09]

Hi everyone,

I have been posting on here a fair bit lately and doing a lot of reading as I am training my dogs. I have noticed that some dog trainers offer these stay and train bootcamp style facilities. Has anyone ever tried that and does it work? Im guessing that the dog would revert back to old ways when it gets home and is out of the bootcamp style environment? Am I correct in assuming that? I dont plan on doing it myself but would be interested to know if anyone has tried it and had success?

[jr_inoz]

i haven't done it either,

BUT - I would assume that the bootcamp training is actually for the humans, more than the dogs - so you can take home with you the training techniques you learn on the intensive and keep training your dog.

[sas]

They can be good to give the owner a jump start but the owner has to be committed to changing their behaviour otherwise the dog will revert.

Also you need to be very well aware of training methods used. There is one here in Sydney that is known for very harsh treatment of dogs and they also do not let you go and look at the facility or a training session before hand - those kinds of things should be red flags.

Edited September 20, 2011 by MEH

[minyvlz]

I have tried it and it was amazing. Prior to that I had the behaviourist come to mine to teach us how to handle him (friend's dog) but we just couldn't control him and did not know what we were doing wrong. It got to the point where it wasn't pretty so we opted to send him to the boarding training program and he came back a completely changed dog.

jr_inoz, how would the training be for the humans if the humans aren't there to see the training of the dog? Sure there has to be a follow up session but the dog is the one being trained in this case...

[Erny]

I do Boarding & Training. I must admit that I much dislike the term "Boot Camp" as it makes me imagine dogs in an army type situation, made to sweat and tough it out, finishing with 200 sit ups should they so much as look at me wrong, and then going to bed on an empty stomach. At a good establishment and with good trainers, it is so the opposite. The dogs are well kept, maintained, fed and cared for and the trainers, assuming they have good knowledge, experience and a healthy dose of passion for training and compassion for the dogs, often make training for them that bit easier because they are consistent from day one and gently but firmly show the dogs what is required and what rewards are obtainable. But hey, what's in a name, lol.

To answer your question, Ludwig09, and giving my own opinion only (which I openly suggest may differ with others), Boarding & Training service is not always the best service for your dog. I have had calls from some owners requesting the B&T service, but in circumstances where the troubled behaviour they describe is stemming from home. The dog will learn to behave for me, for example, but it is not automatic that when the dog is handed back that it will carry over its new-found behaviour to its owner, and that goes a bit deeper than just the learning of sit, drop and the loose lead walk. Generally, this would be in matters where leadership/respect in the relationship at home is out of whack. In those cases, it is the relationship between dog and owner that needs working on, not so much a relationship between dog and trainer and when talking to these people I normally would suggest something like a (eg) behaviour consult and coaching to be the best and most economical for them. There are exceptions to this rule, but only in cases where the behaviours arising from the out-of-balance relationship are so out of control that the owner cannot even begin to rectify them for the fact of having no ability to control the dog. B&T might then be of some assistance in reducing the behaviour sufficiently enough for the short term so that the owner has a chance of coming straight in and carrying on with strategies to improve their relationship and the behavioural training the dog has received.

Certainly, B&T has benefits in the obedience training side of things. The "teaching" of new skills often is what requires the time, regularity and consistency that owners sometimes feel they cannot give. Or the dog might be a bit on the rambunctious (sp?) side that makes it initially too difficult for some owners to get the teaching phase underway. Sometimes it can be a matter of the blind leading the blind (and by this I mean no offence) and that can make the tasks more difficult for both dog and human. Sure, the owners then have to learn, but at least one half of the sentient being relationship knows, the other just has to catch up. To use a different analogy, it is often easier to learn the fine art of equitation by learning on an experienced and trained horse. When the rider pushes the right buttons, the horse is more likely to respond by demonstrating the required movement. The Novice rider on that experienced horse is afforded the opportunity to understand what they needed to do to achieve the movement, and what that movement/relationship with the horse felt like. This makes it easier to achieve the next time and the next and the next, and so on. A Novice Rider might well push the right button (or at least nearly the right button) but an untrained horse won't as likely to respond in kind and the novice rider remains unaware of how close or far away from proper handling he or she was. I'm not saying it is impossible for a Novice Rider to learn using a novice horse, but it is slower going, more fumbley and sometimes more frustrating. Having said that and a bit to the contrary, I think that when one perseveres with patience and finally achieves, even the smallest of improvements and achievements are so incredibly rewarding.

I've had dogs in for B&T that owners would not have believed possible they could be trained to perform the skills to the levels they demonstrate after their B&T stay. If they'd not seen it with their own eyes, they might never have thought it reasonable to even strive to attain them, yet share their delight with their dogs as they step in and up to the plate to continue their dog's training and reach for results they probably would never before have thought possible. In these cases, both owner and dogs win.

So what I'm saying is that there are both advantages and disadvantages with B&T. Whether it is the best thing depends on the dog, the owner, the reason the owner is seeking the B&T and the dog and owners' own situation.

Of course there are times when owners are going away for holidays and like their dogs to have that extra bit of attention and mental stimulation beyond what the kennels already provide. B&T can provide that as well.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Erny

[Guest Black Obsession]

I sent my first Lab to a Boarding and Training kennel. A Behaviourist from the Guide Dogs had assessed her as having a dominant personality, suited to police or security work! She was a bit of a handful, so I boarded her for 3 weeks, then attended obedience classes with her.

I think it fast tracked the training process, but it was too demanding and stressful for her. She was an exhausted wreck when she came home.

I haven't used a boarding kennel since.

[ludwig09]

I do Boarding & Training. I must admit that I much dislike the term "Boot Camp" as it makes me imagine dogs in an army type situation, made to sweat and tough it out, finishing with 200 sit ups should they so much as look at me wrong, and then going to bed on an empty stomach. At a good establishment and with good trainers, it is so the opposite. The dogs are well kept, maintained, fed and cared for and the trainers, assuming they have good knowledge, experience and a healthy dose of passion for training and compassion for the dogs, often make training for them that bit easier because they are consistent from day one and gently but firmly show the dogs what is required and what rewards are obtainable. But hey, what's in a name, lol.

To answer your question, Ludwig09, and giving my own opinion only (which I openly suggest may differ with others), Boarding & Training service is not always the best service for your dog. I have had calls from some owners requesting the B&T service, but in circumstances where the troubled behaviour they describe is stemming from home. The dog will learn to behave for me, for example, but it is not automatic that when the dog is handed back that it will carry over its new-found behaviour to its owner, and that goes a bit deeper than just the learning of sit, drop and the loose lead walk. Generally, this would be in matters where leadership/respect in the relationship at home is out of whack. In those cases, it is the relationship between dog and owner that needs working on, not so much a relationship between dog and trainer and when talking to these people I normally would suggest something like a (eg) behaviour consult and coaching to be the best and most economical for them. There are exceptions to this rule, but only in cases where the behaviours arising from the out-of-balance relationship are so out of control that the owner cannot even begin to rectify them for the fact of having no ability to control the dog. B&T might then be of some assistance in reducing the behaviour sufficiently enough for the short term so that the owner has a chance of coming straight in and carrying on with strategies to improve their relationship and the behavioural training the dog has received.

Certainly, B&T has benefits in the obedience training side of things. The "teaching" of new skills often is what requires the time, regularity and consistency that owners sometimes feel they cannot give. Or the dog might be a bit on the rambunctious (sp?) side that makes it initially too difficult for some owners to get the teaching phase underway. Sometimes it can be a matter of the blind leading the blind (and by this I mean no offence) and that can make the tasks more difficult for both dog and human. Sure, the owners then have to learn, but at least one half of the sentient being relationship knows, the other just has to catch up. To use a different analogy, it is often easier to learn the fine art of equitation by learning on an experienced and trained horse. When the rider pushes the right buttons, the horse is more likely to respond by demonstrating the required movement. The Novice rider on that experienced horse is afforded the opportunity to understand what they needed to do to achieve the movement, and what that movement/relationship with the horse felt like. This makes it easier to achieve the next time and the next and the next, and so on. A Novice Rider might well push the right button (or at least nearly the right button) but an untrained horse won't as likely to respond in kind and the novice rider remains unaware of how close or far away from proper handling he or she was. I'm not saying it is impossible for a Novice Rider to learn using a novice horse, but it is slower going, more fumbley and sometimes more frustrating. Having said that and a bit to the contrary, I think that when one perseveres with patience and finally achieves, even the smallest of improvements and achievements are so incredibly rewarding.

I've had dogs in for B&T that owners would not have believed possible they could be trained to perform the skills to the levels they demonstrate after their B&T stay. If they'd not seen it with their own eyes, they might never have thought it reasonable to even strive to attain them, yet share their delight with their dogs as they step in and up to the plate to continue their dog's training and reach for results they probably would never before have thought possible. In these cases, both owner and dogs win.

So what I'm saying is that there are both advantages and disadvantages with B&T. Whether it is the best thing depends on the dog, the owner, the reason the owner is seeking the B&T and the dog and owners' own situation.

Of course there are times when owners are going away for holidays and like their dogs to have that extra bit of attention and mental stimulation beyond what the kennels already provide. B&T can provide that as well.

Hi Erny, thank you for illustrating the advantages and disadvantages of this style of training. You have really given me a clear understanding of the style of training and its benefits and disadvantages. It has been an interesting read. Thank you Ludwig09

[ludwig09]

I have tried it and it was amazing. Prior to that I had the behaviourist come to mine to teach us how to handle him (friend's dog) but we just couldn't control him and did not know what we were doing wrong. It got to the point where it wasn't pretty so we opted to send him to the boarding training program and he came back a completely changed dog.

jr_inoz, how would the training be for the humans if the humans aren't there to see the training of the dog? Sure there has to be a follow up session but the dog is the one being trained in this case...

Hi minyvlz, good to hear you had success with the training. What method of training did they use?

[Erny]

I sent my first Lab to a Boarding and Training kennel. A Behaviourist from the Guide Dogs had assessed her as having a dominant personality, suited to police or security work! She was a bit of a handful, so I boarded her for 3 weeks, then attended obedience classes with her.

I think it fast tracked the training process, but it was too demanding and stressful for her. She was an exhausted wreck when she came home.

I haven't used a boarding kennel since.

Dogs, even without the training component, often go home and are quiet for a couple of days or so .... catching up on R&R after their exciting (excitement is 'stress' too) and stimulating kennel environment. I must admit though, BO, that I'm not sure what your interpretation of "wreck" is, but "wrecked" is not how I see the dogs (who have been in for B&T or not) from the kennels I work from, go home. If it was the training that was too demanding and stressful for her, then I'd question the training she received within the time period permitted. You can't force learning speed. You need to work with the dog at its own pace .... the trick is to set the scene so that the learning pace can be the best that it can for that dog. Bad luck if this was your first experience and if it was that bad, I understand how your confidence in the kennel boarding system might be reduced. There are some very good boarding kennels around though, so I wouldn't blame the lot of them (not that you were). But I do respect your right to not take up Boarding options and I do hope that the experience was one that saw an improvement in her behaviour, one that made it manageable enough for you to continue with and blossom in your relationship with her.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Erny

[aussielover]

I think "board and train" can be a very useful tool. Of course it all depends on the owners level of commitment.

A friend's dog did a B and T program and came back really well behaved. Although they slacked off on the training the dog has overall improved and they are smart enough to realise they don't have the time or inclination to continue the training themselves so they reguarly send the dog off for a weeks training. Wouldn't be my coice but it seems to work well for them, and it has saved them from giving up/rehoming their dog. The dog seems happy enough with this arrangement as well and looks forward to going off with the trainer.

I would never send my dog somewhere where thay advertised themselves as "boot camp" but I would consider a "board and train" for a really difficult dog.

[Guest Black Obsession]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

ETA: God knows what they made her do during her stay there!

Edited September 21, 2011 by Black Obsession

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I wouldn't send my dog away to be trained by someone else.

It's pointless, my dog won't do what my mum asks her to, and she's been trained lots by me.

I have to get my mum to run through the basic training drills and reward for my dog to understand she's supposed to pay attention.

I have been to a training seminar, i took my dog and camped there and we had an overseas trainer teach us owners and some owners who had "handling spots" ran drills under her supervision. I didn't do much training there because the whole place was underwater most of the time, we had so much rain. And my dog pretty much decided recall was optional because there were so many fun other things to do. But I learned a lot and her recall is much better now. Even at brand new fun smelling places like my cousins' farms.

[aussielover]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

:eek:

How horrible!!!

I really hate seeing people force their dogs onto/thru equipment.

Glad your girl was at least ok after this!

I would have shoved the instructor through the tyre :D

[mita]

There was a review in Q'ld's Sunday Mail a couple of weeks back, about a holiday retreat where both dogs and owners can go stay for an assessment & training lessons. Called Riverview Retreat, it's at Burrum Heads, north of Hervey Bay.

The trainer is Chris de Alitiz & it says he follows the calm, assertive leadership techniques of Cesar Milan. Chris calls his training & rehabilitation service, Natural Balance. He also used to be a professional surfer & will teach your dogs to balance on a paddleboard on the river, if you like. (There's a great picture of the reviewers' 3 dogs happily being paddleboarded along the river's edge).

The review starts off (tongue in cheek ) :

'The misbehaviour had been going on too long. In the case of the two boys, almost since birth. The girl, adopted five years later, had picked up on the boys' worst traits -back-answering, a reluctance to bathe, general boisterousness - and, being the eldest of the siblings, was often the instigator of a group rebellion. Clearly, something had to be done. We'd heard about a reform school, one that combined supremely relaxing accommodation for alpha humans, with firm and effective discipline for their wayward offspring. ....we set out without a second thought.'

The reviewers say that even in the first day, they noticed improvement.

Over the course of a single day, we watched him turn our three troubemakers into models of doggy decorum.

Their overall Verdict on their stay:

Paradise found. Bring mutt (and mat)

(The mat is because follow operator, Claire Dixon, is a trained Hatha yoga teacher who leads Ayurvedic classes on site.)

Edited September 21, 2011 by mita

[Guest lavendergirl]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

ETA: God knows what they made her do during her stay there!

Wow - she must have had a terrible time if that is an indication of their methods. Especially at only 10 months old.

[Agility Dogs]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

ETA: God knows what they made her do during her stay there!

Wow - she must have had a terrible time if that is an indication of their methods. Especially at only 10 months old.

Sadly this was indicative of the methods that I first learned from where my girl boarded and trained. Yes, they worked, no I didn't know any better, no I would not use them again and haven't on subsequent dogs.

Not to say all or even most places are the same, but it would pay to go and watch the training that they do before committing to anything.

[Keira&Phoenix]

I have heard some horror stories from B&T places similar to Black Obsessions, this has included "helicoptering" a dog ie: spinning it around you by its lead and collar. Not nice at all. So please make sure you research if you do decide to go with a place and ask to watch some of their training sessions to get an idea of how they work.

Erny gave you some great advice. I think you really need to decide if it is going to work for YOU. Are YOU willing to put int he effort afterwards.

I assist in classes with my dog trainers, I general help out with the reactive dogs. Now I can take the leash from the owners of reactive dogs, hook the dog up to me and have a completely different dog within 10 seconds, because the dog and I do not have the same emotional connection and because I know what I am doing, as soon as I give the dog back we revert to the same behaviour unless the owners can take on what I have shown them and work hard on it and even then it will not be an immediate effect.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[mita]

Just my opinion & my choice, but I can't see the point in handing over my dog to be trained sight-unseen. I want the training to include me with my dog. So I'd want to be staying, too.

[Guest Black Obsession]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

:eek:

How horrible!!!

I really hate seeing people force their dogs onto/thru equipment.

Glad your girl was at least ok after this!

I would have shoved the instructor through the tyre :D

Believe me, I almost strangled the instructor at the time. I gave him the biggest serve. I also complained to the owner who said he would follow it up and get back to me. I never heard from him.

A funny thing happened about a year later...

A bubbly young worker from the kennel rang me and asked me if I would write a testamonial for their website! I wrote my review of everything that happened, and I didn't hold anything back! They didn't use it, of course but what idiots

[Guest Black Obsession]

In hindsight, I don't think a kennel environment is a natural place for a dog. It must have been awful for her with all those dogs barking all the time.

She wasn't just quiet, she was a mess.

I think they pushed her too hard. In one of our follow up lessons, the instructor insisted that we do some Agility. I told him that I didn't want her doing Agility because she was only 10 months old. He wouldn't listen to me, and when my Lab wouldn't jump through a tyre (I think she could sense my distress), HE LIFTED HER UP BY THE LEAD, DANGLING HER ON A SLIP COLLAR.

I took her to a Canine Chiropractor and she was okay, but I chose to continue our obedience lessons with a local dog club instead.

ETA: God knows what they made her do during her stay there!

Wow - she must have had a terrible time if that is an indication of their methods. Especially at only 10 months old.

It still upsets me to think about it. If anyone ever did anything like that again I would kick them in the nuts