Shmurps Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 The Puppy Farm Story from last night for those interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. How can you seriously come onto a public forum and advocate for people to break the law and believe thats O.K.? Surely you know in the dog world that people will accuse you of all manner of things and its not O.K. to just run riot and have no regard for the law in the name of some cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. How can you seriously come onto a public forum and advocate for people to break the law and believe thats O.K.? Surely you know in the dog world that people will accuse you of all manner of things and its not O.K. to just run riot and have no regard for the law in the name of some cause. Tell me about it. I;ve had the Council, RSPCA and the cops at my house, over a vexatious complaint. Thankfully I did not have any puppies at the time, as they would have been in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. I agree but thats not really all we have on the table here is it? If it were then the other crap designed to make breeders look cruel and terrible wouldnt be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Ah yes, K9 Angel, very distressing. However, some of the posters here will only focus on the fact that someone got in and filmed it. If they had their way, vile situations like these puppy farms would stay secret and unexposed. I wonder if anyone thinks that Josef Fritzl's daughter and children should have stayed in the basement? If these kind of tactics are acceptable perhpas its time some rescue orgs were raided and if we find one thats crook use it to push for laws for all rescue. Ive a couple of photos right now taken legitimately which should kick it off. But it's OK Steve, those doing the right thing, will have nothing to fear. Wrong! There are people out there who regard it as sinful for anyone to breed pups when there are so many pups in rescue. Many of this group are young, idealistic, and inclined to militant action. I think all breeders have reason to fear such people. They will work hard to get the ugliest pictures they can. If someone looking for dirt broke in and took photos the morning after a long, troublesome whelping, even with an excellent breeder, they'd find some unclean greenish placenta junk around the place and get some shots that would look like horrid care to anyone who has never bred dogs. The breeder who helped on the whelping probably hasn't slept for 24+ hours and may take a few hours to clean up . . . especially if they think another pup may be on its way. And when a large litter hits 8 weeks, they produce a lot of pooh . . . so it's not hard to find a disgusting scene or two if that's what you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 (edited) yes agree sandgrubber, dogs are messy and mess up your house and yard pretty quick so i am constantly washing bedding and constantly cleaning, but sometimes if say, im not well and haven't done the cleaning yet in the morning, and the animal people burst into my house! claim its dirty and call me a puppy farmer. this is really scary stuff. people raiding your house because you don't fit to their standards of what has to happen! what are we coming to, people don't realise, we are drawing closer to a dictatorship country, what you can and can't do in your own home! getting back to that story, once again the mark has been missed, if i was just a pure pet owner and didn't know about dogs, i'd be asking so where do i get a well bred puppy from that hasn't been raised on a puppy farm? still not enough education and not enough direction for the public. thats why we need someone to explain to media and the public where you do go. ETA: his idea of getting a tick of approval, that doesn't stop what they're trying to stop, tick of approval from govt who already give tick of approval for the LEGAL commercial puppy farms who breed designer dogs. He has no idea does he at all. and these are the people who are advising the public! we have no one to speak up for our group. we fade into the wordwork. meanwhile everyone else speaks up what should happen and how. Edited September 22, 2011 by toy*dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 i just had a thought. how viable would it be steve for MDBA to get a spokes person when things like this happen then they can speak up about where to go and sort of add to what this chris brown is saying. i think oscar law group got him onboard for themselves so really we do need someone??????? just a random idea just throwing it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Trouble is good breeders dont need to advertise in newspapers to sell their puppies...I have people on a waiting list for each of my litters. I dont breed enough litters to warrant advertising on anything other than DOL. Good breeders of popular breeds don't need to advertize. I always felt lucky that I was in Labs (in WA), cause there were always waiting lists. But I notice that breeders of English pointers, flatcoats, Afghans, and rough collies, to mention a few, have a hard time finding appropriate homes for their pups. The need to advertize proves nothing about the quality of the breeder. You gotta do what ya have to do I spose if your breeding non popular breeds...just cos rescue are advertising in the Trading post doesnt mean reg breeders need to! I am for raising the bar for purebreeds not lowering them to be inline with pf's and byb's. In the good old days we used to buy the Trading Post...but now if we want to look at it we do it online. My bolded bit...not against TP advertising, just not a need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy*dog Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Trouble is good breeders dont need to advertise in newspapers to sell their puppies...I have people on a waiting list for each of my litters. I dont breed enough litters to warrant advertising on anything other than DOL. Good breeders of popular breeds don't need to advertize. I always felt lucky that I was in Labs (in WA), cause there were always waiting lists. But I notice that breeders of English pointers, flatcoats, Afghans, and rough collies, to mention a few, have a hard time finding appropriate homes for their pups. The need to advertize proves nothing about the quality of the breeder. You gotta do what ya have to do I spose if your breeding non popular breeds...just cos rescue are advertising in the Trading post doesnt mean reg breeders need to! I am for raising the bar for purebreeds not lowering them to be inline with pf's and byb's. In the good old days we used to buy the Trading Post...but now if we want to look at it we do it online. My bolded bit...not against TP advertising, just not a need. i find advertising on my website and also in DOL and the breed club is enough to find buyers. but i have known ANKC breeders to advertise in the TP, i don't see there's anything wrong with it. people just need to screen breeders thats all. i don't think where a breeder advertises has anything to do with the quality of the pups and dogs either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KatrinaM Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think registered breeders need to advertise there and everywhere else puppy farmers do. Commercial breeders advertise there because that's were the average Person goes to look for a pup, if they don't see the alternitives how are theygoing to know that there are better breeders to get dogs from or how to get in contact with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the Rebel Wolf Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I found that 7 PM report pretty disappointing. They didn't offer the 'average joe puppy buyer' any solid information, and barely touched upon the importance of getting legislation in place for banning puppy farms altogether. On the plus side, any exposure for the general unknowing public is good, to get them at least thinking about the issue, but it's an issue that needs a whole lot more than thoughts unfortunately. I think it's a separate issue if you're a responsible breeder - by that I mean one who is working towards the betterment of their breed, who provide their dogs with enriched lives and who take the time to find their puppies forever homes. I don't think anybody is going to mistake a responsible breeder for a puppy farm. I understand the point about 'don't breed any pups and have 100% rescues' and how this would threaten a registered & responsible breeder but there is a demand for purebreds (And what many of you are saying about advertising proves this; some of you would never need to advertise anywhere aside from here, because you have waiting lists) there will be a demand for those who breed them responsibly. The goal here should be to produce a responsible puppy buyer; weather they want a specific purebred and sign up on a breeder waiting list, or weather they are happy with a crossbred and adopt a rescue, the aim should be the same - forever home for the dog, no matter what end of the spectrum the buyer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. How can you seriously come onto a public forum and advocate for people to break the law and believe thats O.K.? Surely you know in the dog world that people will accuse you of all manner of things and its not O.K. to just run riot and have no regard for the law in the name of some cause. Excuse me Steve? I'm replying to your complaint about rescuers being just as bad as puppy farmers - why is it OK for you to accuse other parties but noone else. It is because you run the MDBA? It doesn't put you above everyone else. The RSPCA and Councils need to amend the laws, they are far too lax but I believe it is an offence not to seek vet treatment when an animals requires it. I'm sure there are some rescuers that aren't that great. If you read what I've said above, I state again - noone should have dogs unless they are going to look after them properly and I'd lump owners into that as well. By the way, you frequently use the laughter emoticons - I see no humour in this topic whatsoever. Edited September 23, 2011 by dogmad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. How can you seriously come onto a public forum and advocate for people to break the law and believe thats O.K.? Surely you know in the dog world that people will accuse you of all manner of things and its not O.K. to just run riot and have no regard for the law in the name of some cause. There's a highly respectable line of enquiry....in ethical circles. It's an age-old question, is it 'right' to sometimes break a law, and, if so, in what circumstances. For example, some civil disobedience lay behind the civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King Jnr in the US. The position is generally expressed as, is it morally acceptable to break a law, if, not doing so, means that a perversion of law will continue. Happened in my own state of Qld back in the 1970s. Reactionary, highly conservative Premier Jo banned any kind of demonstration in public streets (with no permits available). He was rock solid against any pleas thro' regular channels to reverse this. Bless the Q'ld University students. They assembled on campus & marched to the city a number of times, because the only way left to highlight the problem, in that case, was to break the law on that ban. Policing was much rougher, then....& some of those kids got themselves bashed with batons. Eventually it sickened the general public so much, that the Gov had to change that law & allow permits to have demonstrations. Edited September 23, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt. How can you seriously come onto a public forum and advocate for people to break the law and believe thats O.K.? Surely you know in the dog world that people will accuse you of all manner of things and its not O.K. to just run riot and have no regard for the law in the name of some cause. There's a highly respectable line of enquiry....in ethical circles. It's an age-old question, is it 'right' to sometimes break a law, and, if so, in what circumstances. For example, some civil disobedience lay behind the civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King Jnr in the US. The position is generally expressed as, is it morally acceptable to break a law, if, not doing so, means that a perversion of law will continue. Happened in my own state of Qld back in the 1970s. Reactionary, highly conservative Premier Jo banned any kind of demonstration in public streets (with no permits available). He was rock solid against any pleas thro' regular channels to reverse this. Bless the Q'ld University students. They assembled on campus & marched to the city a number of times, because the only way left to highlight the problem, in that case, was to break the law on that ban. Policing was much rougher, then....& some of those kids got themselves bashed with batons. Eventually it sickened the general public so much, that the Gov had to change that law & allow permits to have demonstrations. True but what is going on here is a little different - These people are breaking and entering, trespassing and stealing when there is no need for them to do that. If they think something is going on that is this bad to warrant that kind of action then why dont they simply hand it over to the people who are charged with investigating it all? The RSPCA have been accused of coming in with boots on, filming those they are raiding, taking out dogs and we have seen them on the telly siezing dogs and doing their job. But with commercial breeder or anyone perceived to be a commercial breeder we are to believe they inspect breeders and see this stuff and dont do anything about it especially now when they have police powers to act OUTSIDE of POCTAA. If they have suspicion that someone is doing it wrong the police, RSPCA and council and all of the puppy buyers who attend the properties will make that determination. This isnt about rallies and civil disobedience its about you and everyone having the right to expect that a bunch of vigilanties and bullies will not break into your property in case you might be doing something to hurt animals according to their definition and not the law and even when you are found not guilty of breaking any laws making your life hell for years anyway because they say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horse2008 Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The RSPCA have more Police Powers, the problem is the laws are very loose in this area. Dogs must have food, water and shelter. The dogs can be fed the crappiest food in existence, but, it IS food, and therefore they have that requirement met. A single drop of even mud covers the water requirement, and a corrugated tin sheet covers the shelter part. There is nothing that says the amount or quality of food or water, or even the shelter specifications. My problem with all this is Oscar's Law is trying to set up new laws, and the enforcers of these laws are already bitching they don't have the money to enforce the laws that already exist. Since when has that made any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 The RSPCA have more Police Powers, the problem is the laws are very loose in this area. Dogs must have food, water and shelter. The dogs can be fed the crappiest food in existence, but, it IS food, and therefore they have that requirement met. A single drop of even mud covers the water requirement, and a corrugated tin sheet covers the shelter part. There is nothing that says the amount or quality of food or water, or even the shelter specifications. My problem with all this is Oscar's Law is trying to set up new laws, and the enforcers of these laws are already bitching they don't have the money to enforce the laws that already exist. Since when has that made any sense? Agreed - however, in Victoria up until now RSPCA had powers to police POCTAA - Council had power to police mandatory codes and regardless of what we are being told they did . In some cases they have been pretty full on .We know of one who is made to keep her dogs in pens and paint the floors every time they drop in for a visit because they say the floors arent sealed well enough. Its been pretty hard for anyone to get a DA in Victoria to breed dogs too. However, now the RSPCA have powers to work outside of POCTAA so they can police mandatory codes which are more specific to a fault of what can and cant be done. We are told the biggest risk factor lies with those who dont have DA's who hide out and do lots to conceal who they are and where they are, what they do etc .there was all manner of stuff in the original discussion paper about getting stock feed places to dob in those who buy lots of dog food etc in order to try to spot them. They tell us this is why they want licences introduced .they tell us that is why we should encourage everyone to apply for DA's and do it all 100% by the book. Most of the photos and footage of terrible puppy farmers who we can clearly see are crimminals are shot of people in this category or hoarders - but the campaign is directed at those who do have inspections, who do have DA's and do follow mandatory laws even if they dont agree with them. Its classic animal rights behaviour and propoganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrin Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Most of the photos and footage of terrible puppy farmers who we can clearly see are crimminals are shot of people in this category or hoarders - but the campaign is directed at those who do have inspections, who do have DA's and do follow mandatory laws even if they dont agree with them. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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