Time To Scrap All Puppy Farms

[toy*dog]

You can still know the blood lines if you cross breed them you just cant register the pups with the ANKC .You can still test the parents for the same thing any one else breeding that breed can and there are some you dont need to test for as they are recessive and not common to both breeds.

Its about what you are selecting for.

If Im selecting dogs destined to be used for further breeding I have to take into account things which will impact on future litters. If Im breeding for only one litter then I have to select differently. Some peopel select for working ability and others for the way a dog conforms for the show ring . Each can keep their dogs well and each can justify what they do.

What makes purebred breeders unique is that we do have to consider what comes next so we select differently. We dont have to agree with it and we can lecture them on predictibility etc but just because its not what we think should be done doesnt mean they are breeding sick ,untested dogs or keeping them in rotten conditions.

Time we sorted out that we are a minority and there are only 4 and a half thousand of us Australia wide and stop trying to beat those up who do things differently or select for other things - we need friends not enemies.

i wasn't judging anyone, i was just genuinely interested in how breeding crosses is accomplished. katrinaM could tell us that she does this or that or this is how she accomplished this. she did say that she does test so i am interested in how testing is done on crosses and how they apply that to breeding crosses how they deal with recessives. i didn't mean to say that they are breeding poor quality etc. just wanting to learn about another side because i am a sticky nose . i know you are meaning about commercial cross breed breeders and i think i made that point some time ago about them breeding blindly etc etc.

when you look at it, the principles are the same breeding dogs for working as they are breeding dogs for another purpose whether that is show, obedience, tracking or guide dogs or police dogs the list goes on. health will still have to be considered. if you show a sick dog the majority of the time you get penalised for it in the showring sometimes that doesn't always happen for various reasons politically :rolleyes: (won't go into all that here), but if you breed a sick working dog it can't work, similar outcome.

but you have to remember, just because a breeder does breed for show doesn't mean that they are just breeding for looks alone and bugger health. far from it. i've spent alot of time getting breeders in our group to think about the breed and to think how the health of their foundation dogs impacts future generations, i've achieved that i believe breeders are saying and doing things that was never talked about many years ago and it is helping the breed enormously. Mind you they were screaming and complaining about it for years and i bore the brunt of that, but i stuck it out talked to all of them and slowly but surely they started to accept what i was writing about, there are still some breeders dont' get me wrong who only look at the glory and forget about upholding a breed, watching over many years some exhibitors who clearly have a sick lame dog and still get the prizes because the judge is simply looking at the wrong end of the lead, this action can have a tremendous impact and do alot of damage to the breed concerned and also the dogworld and many other areas, if they do forego health.

my point has always been there is less of a chance of knowing what lays beneath the surface in terms of recessive genetic health problems with DD's. i've beaten myself up for years about this , wanting to buy health dogs and not getting it over and over again until i gave up over and over again only to come back and start all over again and being told i can still breed the dog and make some money for myself some breeders are still telling some pet owners that grrrrrrrr today, breeders hiding what they actually have in the yard that should never have been bred for that dog with a genetic problem to then pass it onto the next generation and then you only finding out when you breed that line down the track. people having key dogs in a bloodline that have been desexed sold to a pet home taking that dog out of the picture forcing you to fit the remainig pieces of the puzzle and research to the best of your ability the health of each dog in the pedigree.

now could you imagine a designer dog commercial breeder with over 1000 dogs doing this with each and every stud dog and bitch, it would be highly impossible given what i've been through for many years.

and the average joe/pet owner would not know what we've been through as breeders they would not know how hard it is to breed a healthy litter of pups generation after generation and try not to solely concentrate on type and dogs to standard, all one way you try to encompass all those things together and it gets more difficult still.

i guess my problem is that i just don't see its in the best interest of consumers, the dogs themselves to have these large commercial places churning out oodles, patoodles moodles or whatever they call them these days. its not in the best interest of the consumer because of all the issues with recessives that i know through trial and error, also congenital and polygenic comes into play as well. all lethal in the wrong hands. and i just think oodlemoodlepatoodle breeders are the wrong hands. it then impacts on the animals and people exploiting them and exploiting people at the same time and its all tied in and this is why today, i think we are all in this big bloody mess. more and more laws are being laid down simply because there are human beings that are greedy, selfish, lie and cheat and because of that we all suffer and get restiction and get dragged through the coals.

it all started as far as i can see turning my mind back to late 70's (was a kid then but watched my auntie with pedigrees in the showworld) with cross breeds, heinz varities/mongrel dogs being sold for alot of money simply because of the media and marketing.

Edited September 22, 2011 by toy*dog

[toy*dog]

I never thought of it like that Steve, it makes sense, will put the think cap back on. Thank you for that, that's why people need to throw ideas off rack other rather than hand grenades.

I think you are confusing unknown pedigree with crossbred. Crossbred working dogs most often have know pedigrees, although they aren't always recorded the same way. There are heaps of ways to test health, a lot depends on diseases already identified in component breeds for things like pra and arvc DNA tests work on crossbreds, thyroid tests, I own a holter monitor I make use off, hip, elbow and spine X-rays, rather than focus on breed scores the focus is on evidence of deformity or abnormalities. Not perfect but it's a work in progress.

Sorry to talk about my crossbred dogs on dol, I try very hard to avoid it. Can answer anything else by pm if that's cool toydogs.

troy will probably see this and delete it. look out.

[toy*dog]

I never thought of it like that Steve, it makes sense, will put the think cap back on. Thank you for that, that's why people need to throw ideas off rack other rather than hand grenades.

I think you are confusing unknown pedigree with crossbred. Crossbred working dogs most often have know pedigrees, although they aren't always recorded the same way. There are heaps of ways to test health, a lot depends on diseases already identified in component breeds for things like pra and arvc DNA tests work on crossbreds, thyroid tests, I own a holter monitor I make use off, hip, elbow and spine X-rays, rather than focus on breed scores the focus is on evidence of deformity or abnormalities. Not perfect but it's a work in progress.

Sorry to talk about my crossbred dogs on dol, I try very hard to avoid it. Can answer anything else by pm if that's cool toydogs.

thanks, i think that has probably answered my question didnt know that that they do have a register, very interesting.

[KatrinaM]

Sometimes talking about crossbreds ends in wars and name calling. Im sure Troy has better things to do than referee stuff like that. I won't be offended to be deleated, I read the rules.

Some crosses do have registers, some are in the twilight stage in between a breed and a cross and have a breed register and some are just well known by those who use them, just the same as some pure bred people don't need a copy of a pedigree to "know" generations of breeding and the relationship between dogs.

Thanks Sandgrubber, it's a shame the solution isn't so easy. I am off to try and think of more ideas. I figure eventually somebody will come up with a brilliant idea if we all keep trying.

[toy*dog]

Sometimes talking about crossbreds ends in wars and name calling. Im sure Troy has better things to do than referee stuff like that. I won't be offended to be deleated, I read the rules.

Some crosses do have registers, some are in the twilight stage in between a breed and a cross and have a breed register and some are just well known by those who use them, just the same as some pure bred people don't need a copy of a pedigree to "know" generations of breeding and the relationship between dogs.

Thanks Sandgrubber, it's a shame the solution isn't so easy. I am off to try and think of more ideas. I figure eventually somebody will come up with a brilliant idea if we all keep trying.

and the powers that be, politicians, like the one who said about pitbulls being sharks have been invited to read this forum too. i gave him so many links through his PA's. so hopefully he did what i suggested and is reading this forum, we can only hope.

[Steve]

Sometimes talking about crossbreds ends in wars and name calling. Im sure Troy has better things to do than referee stuff like that. I won't be offended to be deleated, I read the rules.

Some crosses do have registers, some are in the twilight stage in between a breed and a cross and have a breed register and some are just well known by those who use them, just the same as some pure bred people don't need a copy of a pedigree to "know" generations of breeding and the relationship between dogs.

Thanks Sandgrubber, it's a shame the solution isn't so easy. I am off to try and think of more ideas. I figure eventually somebody will come up with a brilliant idea if we all keep trying.

I wont war with you but give me enough chance and Ill try and convert you

[k9angel]

They've got a segment on now on channel 10 about these puppy farms.

Edited September 22, 2011 by k9angel

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Ah yes, K9 Angel, very distressing. However, some of the posters here will only focus on the fact that someone got in and filmed it. If they had their way, vile situations like these puppy farms would stay secret and unexposed. I wonder if anyone thinks that Josef Fritzl's daughter and children should have stayed in the basement?

[BigDaz]

I just have a question.

I noticed on Facebook that PetRescue are happy that their dogs will now be advertised on the Trading Post web site.

I always considered the Trading Post one of the main avenues puppy farmers use to dispose of their wares and a site to be avoided, am I incorrect in my thinking?

[Crysti_Lei]

I just have a question.

I noticed on Facebook that PetRescue are happy that their dogs will now be advertised on the Trading Post web site.

I always considered the Trading Post one of the main avenues puppy farmers use to dispose of their wares and a site to be avoided, am I incorrect in my thinking?

so that makes Pet Rescue a puppy farm?

Perhaps if all good breeders advertised there too it would make a difference and effect the business off the unethical breeders that advertise there.

[BigDaz]

I just have a question.

I noticed on Facebook that PetRescue are happy that their dogs will now be advertised on the Trading Post web site.

I always considered the Trading Post one of the main avenues puppy farmers use to dispose of their wares and a site to be avoided, am I incorrect in my thinking?

so that makes Pet Rescue a puppy farm?

Perhaps if all good breeders advertised there too it would make a difference and effect the business off the unethical breeders that advertise there.

Not saying that PetRescue is a puppy farm at all, sorry if I worded my post incorrectly and made you come to that conclusion.

Just questioning the motives of the Trading Post to be honest and the benefits of a Rescue Promoting a media that does nothing to stop puppy farming (as far as I know, I could be totally wrong). I think if the Trading Post only accepted rescue and registered breeders I would not be so sceptical.

Im just asking the question, I guess there is benefit in promoting rescue in the same publication that promotes Labradoodles (do a search).

Edited September 22, 2011 by BigDaz

[Shazzapug]

I just have a question.

I noticed on Facebook that PetRescue are happy that their dogs will now be advertised on the Trading Post web site.

I always considered the Trading Post one of the main avenues puppy farmers use to dispose of their wares and a site to be avoided, am I incorrect in my thinking?

so that makes Pet Rescue a puppy farm?

Perhaps if all good breeders advertised there too it would make a difference and effect the business off the unethical breeders that advertise there.

Trouble is good breeders dont need to advertise in newspapers to sell their puppies...I have people on a waiting list for each of my litters. I dont breed enough litters to warrant advertising on anything other than DOL.

[sandgrubber]

Trouble is good breeders dont need to advertise in newspapers to sell their puppies...I have people on a waiting list for each of my litters. I dont breed enough litters to warrant advertising on anything other than DOL.

Good breeders of popular breeds don't need to advertize.

I always felt lucky that I was in Labs (in WA), cause there were always waiting lists. But I notice that breeders of English pointers, flatcoats, Afghans, and rough collies, to mention a few, have a hard time finding appropriate homes for their pups. The need to advertize proves nothing about the quality of the breeder.

[Steve]

thats just not true - good breeders do sometimes need to advertise .And what if they do - advertise anywhere?

As long as the breeder is doing it right and handling the sale isnt that better than having puppies unsold or puppies sold by an agent or pet shop?

This is a real issue .Ive met some breeders who justify putting their puppies in pet shops because if they advertise they are judged as being rotten breeders. The pet shop doesnt tell peopel they had puppies and didnt have them all sold before they hit the ground. Ive met breeders who kill their puppies rather than be seen to be advertising someplace someone has decided they shouldnt.

If pet rescue are advertising there thats great it puts them where people can see them and no one is selling them entire so why would puppy farmers be attracted to that ?

I dont take a waiting list simply because when I did I had up to 100 on it - that makes no sense to me or the buyers .I start taking names about 3 days before the litter is born and I dont tell anyone they are here until they are about 3 weeks old. Maremmas have a dozen or so a litter and it's better for them to be gone at 8 weeks to be able to start work and bonding and its not just puppy farmers who shop on the trading post its ordinary every day people who dont know where else to look.

Its a good thing for pet rescue or any rescue assuming they are doing the rest right and its a good thing for breeders.

Does anyone seriously think that someone looking for a dog for a puppy farm isnt capapble of seeing dogs on dogz or the pet rescue website as easily as they do on the trading post?

This whole thing of if you are a good breeder you dont need to advertise is a myth and its a good way for breeders to promote their breeds outside of the usual in house places.

[Kajirin]

I found my Sibe's registered breeder through the classifieds of the paper...I never knew any better and was before the internet. So I was thankful they advertised in there.

I'd never begrudge a registered breeder using print media to spread the word of pedigree pups available. As that is where most people start out looking.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I'm all for Petrescue advertising everywhere and anywhere.

As a rescuer who spreads the word about rescue dogs and breeders (and why I oppose petshops and online sales), I often get the response that people had no idea where to look so thought they had to go to a petshop to get a puppy.

Whilst I find this hard to believe, lookign at it from a person's point of view, they see puppies every time they go to the shopping centre and it's easy and right there - somethign many people want these days, instant gratification.

Someone at work told me their dog had passed away (old and from cancer) yesterday. She knows what I do. She then said that if she ever gets another dog she had already chosen her breed so I asked what? She'd just lost a labrador.

To my horror she said she wanted a Labradoodle. I then discussed one of two whys and wherefors with her in a gentle way. Lay people really just don't know.

I frequently encourage people to go to shows and meet breeders. One lady at work did just this and researched for a few months and ended up with an Airedale, the match couldnt' have been more perfect but she's in it for life thank goodness whereas those that buy from petshops do on impulse quite frequently or without the knowledge of the breed/crossbreeds they are buying and that's where the problems begin.

[Steve]

Ah yes, K9 Angel, very distressing. However, some of the posters here will only focus on the fact that someone got in and filmed it. If they had their way, vile situations like these puppy farms would stay secret and unexposed. I wonder if anyone thinks that Josef Fritzl's daughter and children should have stayed in the basement?

If these kind of tactics are acceptable perhpas its time some rescue orgs were raided and if we find one thats crook use it to push for laws for all rescue. Ive a couple of photos right now taken legitimately which should kick it off.

[WreckitWhippet]

Ah yes, K9 Angel, very distressing. However, some of the posters here will only focus on the fact that someone got in and filmed it. If they had their way, vile situations like these puppy farms would stay secret and unexposed. I wonder if anyone thinks that Josef Fritzl's daughter and children should have stayed in the basement?

If these kind of tactics are acceptable perhpas its time some rescue orgs were raided and if we find one thats crook use it to push for laws for all rescue. Ive a couple of photos right now taken legitimately which should kick it off.

But it's OK Steve, those doing the right thing, will have nothing to fear.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt.

[WreckitWhippet]

Noone should have dogs if they can't look after them properly (ie food, water, suitable housing and vet care) - to me it doesn't matter if it is a puppy farm, a registered breeder or a rescuer. I don't think that anyone should be exempt.

If only it were that simple. It's not just a matter of being able to look after the dogs , in terms of food, water and shelter. The ANKC breeders are subject to the same requirements under the law, as the puppy farmers are and that means DA approvals, no raising litters in your loungeroom etc.