The Spotted Devil Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Guilt implies the need for an individual to have self awareness and an understanding of what is right and wrong. Right and wrong are HUMAN constructs. Dogs are simply very good at picking up on cues in their external environment. In addition, dogs don't have the brain (frontal lobe) development that leads humans to say "I think, therefore I am". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) I think we've had this discussion a few times before and my opinion is changing. The first thing though is that I think some dogs are a lot smarter than others - smarter dogs make stronger associations and have better memories. This is relevant because I think this is why my dog appears to be guilty when he's been naughty. I know in my case that it's not my tone or body language, because when I get home from work, my dog is either waiting for me at the back door if he's been a good boy, or cowering over in the middle of the lawn if he's been naughty. If he's been naughty, we can tell from his body language how close we are to the scene of the crime - he will start to lag back, and practically lie down with the most pathetic (and cute I might add) expression on his face. I don't know if he feels guilty as such - ie remorse for his naughty behaviour, but he does know that he has done something that will make us upset. I think because I have a smarter dog, he has learned to associate particular behaviour - such as pulling clothes off the line or stealing gardening gloves etc, with our disapproval, and because he's clever and remembers tricks after one session, he remembers these associations and so knows what's coming after he performs these acts. I just want to add that we don't hurt our dog or anything like that. His punishment consists of being told that he should be ashamed of himself and that he's been a bad dog in an angry tone, and then me walking away from him (ie no pats or greetings from coming home). So in closing, I am starting to believe that there are 2 factors that determine how likely your dog is to appear 'guilty'. The first is intelligence - they need to be able to make connections between particular behaviours and human responses and have good memories. The second is sensitivity and how much the dog is upset by your disapproval. If they score highly in both, you will probably have a dog that seems guilty after committing crimes. Edited September 19, 2011 by jacqui835 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskedaway Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 In my house, Akira has never done anything and Halo takes all the blame. It's a personality thing - Halo is a much softer dog than Akira and thinks she's done something wrong if you talk in the right tone of voice. OH used to always say she was just a naughty dog and she was always guilty, until I showed him something. We hid inside the house and watched Akira digging a hole in the garden bed. Then I sent him outside when she'd stopped and he did his whole "who did this?" thing. Halo ran away like she was in trouble and acted in her typical "I'm so guilty" way, Akira stood there with a big grin on her face. Since then OH hasn't bothered trying to find out who's guilty - chances are, it's more than likely the naughty Sibe no matter who takes the blame! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 With the ACD we had, we would come home from being out and he would not greet us, but hide under furniture. It was then a case of searching for the naughty thing he had done....his bed or a cushion ripped up perhaps. Did he feel guilt? ;) This is exactly like my dog - cheeky buggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 With the ACD we had, we would come home from being out and he would not greet us, but hide under furniture. It was then a case of searching for the naughty thing he had done....his bed or a cushion ripped up perhaps. Did he feel guilt? ;) This is exactly like my dog - cheeky buggers. What is guilt? Knowing that you are in the s**t for doing something naughty. I can guarantee Jed (our previous ACD) knew he had done something naughty when there was foam scattered right through the house or a disembowelled cushion in the middle of the floor...hence he would be hiding when we came home. He would be told off for being a 'naughty boy' and sent out to the backyard to do his 'timeout'. If that is not a form of guilt, what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) Guilt implies the need for an individual to have self awareness and an understanding of what is right and wrong. Right and wrong are HUMAN constructs. Well, yes, but that's not to say dogs and other animals can't have something similar, like perhaps a sense of fairness and aversion to inequality. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/dogenvy/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-ethical-dog ETA I have some interesting video of a dog I've been working on who at times behaves differently when she hears a water tone and touches the target and triggers water delivery than when she hears a probe tone and touches the target and triggers nothing. It's quite cool. When she triggers water she has to disengage and go and perform some displacement behaviours, but when she tries to trigger a probe tone that means nothing, she just kind of stares at it and wags her tail. A few of them get a little anxious about triggering water instead of milk. Edited September 20, 2011 by corvus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 TM - your dog associated the presence of the shredded foam with your displeasure, not the actual act of shredding the foam. Your dog knew he was in "the s**t" but not because "he did something naughty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I wonder if people tipped over the bin/shredded paper etc, went out of the room and then walked in again, would the dog show "guilt"? Ie is the dog associating big mess = I'm in trouble and therefore looking "guilty"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 There's been some experimentation done on the shredded paper and guilty look. http://www.ohmidog.com/tag/patricia-mcconnell/ that's Part One http://dogspies.blogspot.com/2011/04/guilt-part-2-she-greeted-me-showing.html that's Part Two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I wonder if people tipped over the bin/shredded paper etc, went out of the room and then walked in again, would the dog show "guilt"? Ie is the dog associating big mess = I'm in trouble and therefore looking "guilty"? In my case I know the answer is no. If my OH doesn't put his gardening gloves away, the dog barely seems to notice them. If he is the one who moved them, he won't even go near them. I don't have to know what's happened - I can tell from the dog! (OH will lie lol but poochy doesn't seem to be capable of that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smooch Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Smooch gets the guilty look when he has been licking his leg (He is OCD with it.) He gets this terrible guilty look on his face which is a good give away. Check his leg and sure enough he has been licking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubiton Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Yes everyone says that they are being 'humnised' and dontfeel guilt BUT when the dog creeps in from outside with THAT look the first thing you do is go out there to find out what they dog has done (even by accident) and 9 times out of 10 there will be something that the dog has knocked over, damaged, moved, basically done something it shouldnt have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Black Obsession Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) No, I don't think dogs feel 'guilty'. I think it's insulting to canine intelligence to say they experience guilt. Edited September 20, 2011 by Black Obsession Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snippet Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I don't think they feel guilt, they pick up on our feelings and act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 to be biddable, ie, have a desire to please, a dog MUST be capable of something like guilt, ie, awareness that he/she has done something that will bring displeasure. Guilty looks are a different kettle of fish, cause they assume the human can read the dog's body language. Some of us aren't so good at this. We can't know whether the dog feels 'guilt' in a way equivalent to the way you or I feel guilt. But WTS, I'm not sure that the guilt feelings I get are the same as the guilt feelings you get. And I think it's established that some psychopaths feel no empathy and no guilt. basically, there is no way of knowing what another sentient being feels, within, or across as species boundary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Well, not quite no way. My Phd project looks at indicators of whether dogs are in a positive or negative emotional state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Well, not quite no way. My Phd project looks at indicators of whether dogs are in a positive or negative emotional state. Well, huh? What are you saying? (not quite! no way! . . . or not-quite (adj) no-way (noun) . . . also: not-quite no-way what?) It would be great to see a copy of your dissertation proposal. Sounds interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Well, not quite no way. My Phd project looks at indicators of whether dogs are in a positive or negative emotional state. Well, huh? What are you saying? (not quite! no way! . . . or not-quite (adj) no-way (noun) . . . also: not-quite no-way what?) Wow, I'm as confused as you are! I don't even know what that was supposed to be, but I'm going with "Well, not quite, maybe". It would be great to see a copy of your dissertation proposal. Sounds interesting. I have a very ugly but layperson-oriented website that kind of explains it here: http://www.dogoptimism.com/ Also have a Facebook page where I post all my favourite articles about detecting emotion in animals and that sort of thing:http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Dog-Optimism/232233783467933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 No doubt in my mind at all. I just walked into the kitchen and Reeve took off outside at great knots and wouldn't come back in. I had absolutely no idea that he had done anything but he had got up on the bench and eaten all the meat for the dogs tea, little brat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/a-glimpse-at-guilty/ I cringe and get all hot and red when accused of doing stuff I didn't. It's harder to deal with a false accusation than being accused of something I did do. And sometimes I get yelled at for doing something I think is just fine. And i get angry at the person doing the yelling for being so hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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