Hunter Groups Call For End To Puppy Farming

[toy*dog]

some people are actually saying now (just general public not really involved alot with dogs) that they can see the day when petshops will be banned in selling live animals and also domestic animal farms will be banned eventually and they hope that the govt of the day will have enough sense to only have registered breeders with ANKC with pedigrees able to sell puppies where they can perhaps monitor all this a bit better.

i don't see it ANKC take a back seat in all of this preferring to leave it up to individual state controlling bodies to battle it out but many are saying this is what is going to happen!

i can see the day when it will be a thing of the past to actually breed, show and do dog sports with a dog. all these organisations need to get educated then come back to the drawing board.

i really despise the fact that we (ethical ANKC registered breeders) are being bunged up in all of this and with commercial domestic animal businesses that churnout designer dogs for profit.

Edited September 19, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

We have actually set up a Dob In A Puppy Farmer campaign at our SoCares Support Group website.

If anyone knows of a puppy farmer or back yard breeder, especially in the Hunter Valley & Central Coast regions, by all means email us the details.

Please follow this link: http://www.supportgroup.socares.com.au

The link you have provided to the discussion paper to explain what is a puppy farmer is not helpful now as the round table conference was held a year ago and a new definition and explanations were put in place.

If you are calling for people to dob in a puppy farmer and a back yard breeder perhaps it would be prudent for you to explain exactly what that is, what a breeder's protection is against vexatious complaints, stalking and having their privacy breached on someone's say so.

[Steve]

some people are actually saying now (just general public not really involved alot with dogs) that they can see the day when petshops will be banned in selling live animals and also domestic animal farms will be banned eventually and they hope that the govt of the day will have enough sense to only have registered breeders with ANKC with pedigrees able to sell puppies where they can perhaps monitor all this a bit better.

i don't see it ANKC take a back seat in all of this preferring to leave it up to individual state controlling bodies to battle it out but many are saying this is what is going to happen!

i can see the day when it will be a thing of the past to actually breed, show and do dog sports with a dog. all these organisations need to get educated then come back to the drawing board.

i really despise the fact that we (ethical ANKC registered breeders) are being bunged up in all of this and with commercial domestic animal businesses that churnout designer dogs for profit.

One day when Im dead they may ban sales of live animals in pet shops but based on what I know that is flogging a dead horse.They would be much better served to accept that its going to happen and turn their attention onto pushing for greater regulation and laws to prevent animals suffering in pet shops.

However, there is not now or ever a remote single chance that we will ever get to a point where only ANKC breeders can sell puppies. How on earth can they monitor it a bit better anyway ? The laws in every state are already more strict then any state Canine association code of ethics which everyone who breeds a dog has to comply with. The only thing an ANKC registered breeder has to do which everyone else doesnt is register all of their puppies.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

Toy Dog

http://www.prisoners...t.org.au/?p=580

Perhaps you missed this. Keep in mind these breeders are registered breeders and they have been selling huge amounts of puppies to Mc Dougall pet shops in Hawaii and NSW pet shops as is their right to do via the law and Dogs NSW codes - for a very long time - also remember in order for them to be accepted for export they have to be examined and prove to be healthy. Are they being charged - are they being sacked from Dogs NSW ? If so what is it they are guilty of and how have they breached the code if they say they are breeding for the betterment of the breed?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Steve

[toy*dog]

I look at that site every so often but yes i missed that. that is awful and gives us all a bad name im sorry to say. those poor little dogs. DogsVictoria were asking members (some members came to us to tell us) about the amount of litters some breeders were having and why they were breeding them. some were boohooing it all but you're damned if you do nothing and your damned if you do something, dogsvictoria cant seem to get it right with any members but what do you do about all this its really a losing battle.

don't know what that will do asking members why so many litters, they can tell them anything as long as they have a permit with their council. so around and around we go. DogsVictoria have code of ethics that they need members to abide by so i'm off the opinion that maybe they need to employ an animal officer that inspects if they have reason to do so. but we do notice that if a breeder breeds more than within 18 months or breeds a bitch before the recommended age of that breed then they are named and shamed in the gazette and some of them are even fined or suspended. usually it will just state the code that they've violated.

i had a friend that is really upset about puppy farmers and people breeding for profit and counted up how many litters a year some of these people were having and sometimes it got up to 20 litters with small toy dogs.

*edited for spelling and grammar

Edited September 20, 2011 by toy*dog

[toy*dog]

How on earth can they monitor it a bit better anyway ? The laws in every state are already more strict then any state Canine association code of ethics which everyone who breeds a dog has to comply with. The only thing an ANKC registered breeder has to do which everyone else doesnt is register all of their puppies.

well im not saying it others are that have no inside info about breeding and owning dogs really not as involved as what you or I are.

i guess they are meaning, if everyone was registered with a body that actually does checks like they think councils do.... thats a whole different story, then we can stamp out puppy farms. i dunno only assuming here. but i've had so many people say this to me when i discuss about puppy farms and ANKC breeders and petshops etc. etc.

[sandgrubber]

Please direct me to the text of Oscar's Law. Maybe I'm paranoid, but it rubs me the wrong way to see people rallying around a 'law' that hasn't been written, acting like vigilantes, and doing little or nothing to work within the body of existing law to protect animal welfare. Eg, why don't they take first steps like seeing that NSW pet shops enforce the laws re. age of pups, space requirements for animals, training of staff, keeping of records, vaccinations, etc., etc. -- pet shops are public and can be inspected without trespassing. Why don't they support the duly constituted authorities in enforcing animal welfare laws that pertain to dog breeders and campaign for councils to do more on enforcement?

Until they clearly define 'puppy factory', I think caution is required . . . no matter what is in their FAQ.

Btw, the beagle-ish bitch with the huge dragging teats on the Oscar's Law website is also a cover girl for the Vic RSPCA. I've seen bitches go quite baggy on their first (large) litter and firm up after. I have Labs . . . so the legs are longer and they don't drag. Some girls have big boobs and produce lots of milk. This girl is older. I find it more distressing that her legs are short than that her teats are big. To the contrary, I think the use of this photo as evidence of abuse displays ignorance of dog breeding on the part of Vic RSPCA and the Oscars Law folks. If they'd shown the same girl curled up with 12 pups, she might have been a cover girl for the joys of motherhood.

As a breeder, and pedigree dog enthusiast, I find it frightening that the second paragraph on the Oscars Law website reads:

"You can help fight the genocide in Australia's pounds, promote rescue organisations and shelters as the first option to adopting, and change the way Australians gets their pets. Adoption is the intelligent alternative to impulse buying. No puppy factory whether it is 'clean', 'model', 'state of the art' or otherwise is the answer for mans best friend."

they also say this on the FAQ page:

What is the difference between a registered breeder and a puppy factory (and how will I know)?

A registered breeder is registered with the Australian National Kennel Council and must meet certain requirements. A breeder will usually specialise in one breed and is also likely to be involved in showing that breed.

A puppy factory will not be registered with the ANKC. Many claim to be registered, but they are just a 'registered' business! The ANKC only registers 'pure breed' dog breeders. All designer dogs are cross breeds.

A breeder will be happy for you to visit them to meet the parents and the pups at their own premises, in fact most will insist. Puppy factories will not. If puppy factories who meet the legal requirements of minimum standards of care will not let you see their breeding facilities - they know that you will be horrified.

A breeder will know about their breed, they will be happy to answer your questions and are very likely to have plenty of their own. If you are suspicious, go home and do some research.

ETA; there are quite a few reg breeders that quite happily follow oscars law and were even at the rally. just saying....

Edited September 20, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Steve]

How on earth can they monitor it a bit better anyway ? The laws in every state are already more strict then any state Canine association code of ethics which everyone who breeds a dog has to comply with. The only thing an ANKC registered breeder has to do which everyone else doesnt is register all of their puppies.

well im not saying it others are that have no inside info about breeding and owning dogs really not as involved as what you or I are.

i guess they are meaning, if everyone was registered with a body that actually does checks like they think councils do.... thats a whole different story, then we can stamp out puppy farms. i dunno only assuming here. but i've had so many people say this to me when i discuss about puppy farms and ANKC breeders and petshops etc. etc.

So where does that take us - the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders which represents commercial breeders has a code, its harder to get in and stay in than the ANKC is and really does do checks.

You are still bogged into believing someone can be defined a puppy farmer by how many they breed or own - you still think that ANKC registered is somehow special and they are the only ones who can do what ever is needed to breed good dogs and keep them in above standard conditions.

[Steve]

I know of at least four large scale breeders who have preempted or reacted to

breaches on their property

with purchases of large guard dogs.

I know one day I'm going to open the paper and its not going to be good.

word out to any earnest investigators:

if you see a central asian or anatolian/kangal it will attack

please don't breach its territory.

Treats won't work.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up.

Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either.

[toy*dog]

So where does that take us - the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders which represents commercial breeders has a code, its harder to get in and stay in than the ANKC is and really does do checks.

You are still bogged into believing someone can be defined a puppy farmer by how many they breed or own - you still think that ANKC registered is somehow special and they are the only ones who can do what ever is needed to breed good dogs and keep them in above standard conditions.

no you are wrong i don't believe that, i've been around for quite a few years and no i don't believe that at all that being reg is somehow special. when i do happen to mention to people that have no idea about reg ANKC breeders i always say someone that is ethical i.e. does testing, has healthy dogs tries his or hers best to breed healthy dogs and it is harder to do that with a cross because they have no pedigrees to work off and research bloodlines that may be affected with genetic problems. so no i don't blanket ANKC breeders as somehow magical human beings that know what to do and how to do it as i've said many times, there are puppy farmers in our ranks as well and it is in the best interests of buyers to screen their breeders and ofcourse vice versa of breeders too.

[toy*dog]

I know of at least four large scale breeders who have preempted or reacted to

breaches on their property

with purchases of large guard dogs.

I know one day I'm going to open the paper and its not going to be good.

word out to any earnest investigators:

if you see a central asian or anatolian/kangal it will attack

please don't breach its territory.

Treats won't work.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up.

Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either.

i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner.

usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea.

[toy*dog]

So where does that take us - the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders which represents commercial breeders has a code, its harder to get in and stay in than the ANKC is and really does do checks.

do they? because it was leaked who was actually members and there were all these notorious farms including one i know very well to not treat their dogs too well and have been raided because of not treating dogs too well. I personally know the person and have grown up knowing this person and i know how they treat their dogs like crap. So if they do do checks they don't do it very well or turn a blind eye.

Edited September 20, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

So where does that take us - the Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders which represents commercial breeders has a code, its harder to get in and stay in than the ANKC is and really does do checks.

do they? because it was leaked who was actually members and there were all these notorious farms including one i know very well to not treat their dogs too well and have been raided because of not treating dogs too well. I personally know the person and have grown up knowing this person and i know how they treat their dogs like crap. So if they do do checks they don't do it very well or turn a blind eye.

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

[toy*dog]

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years.

where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state.

i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across.

there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it.

anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

Edited September 20, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

I know of at least four large scale breeders who have preempted or reacted to

breaches on their property

with purchases of large guard dogs.

I know one day I'm going to open the paper and its not going to be good.

word out to any earnest investigators:

if you see a central asian or anatolian/kangal it will attack

please don't breach its territory.

Treats won't work.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up.

Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either.

i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner.

usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea.

I know a breeder who locks her dogs up at night because she feels that stops any barking and it is more secure for them. They run the property all day unless they are having puppies and they are then confined to a pen to keep them safe.

If someone were to come in with torches sneaking around in the night the dogs would react and it could be made to look like the dogs were always "locked up" rather than simply put to bed.

I also know a registered breeder who has placed pick handles at every doorway and entrance who swears if anyone comes onto his property he will beat them and will gladly do time over it if need be.

He has been visited 20 plus times over the years by RSPCA due to vexatious complaints and passed every inspection.

[WreckitWhippet]

Just what we need, more vexatious complaints, the general public and those with an axe to grind, being egged on by another "animal rights" org.

[Steve]

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years.

where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state.

i think in other countrys its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background.

there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it.

anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

Dogs Victoria didnt attend - MDBA, RSPCA Australia, RSPCA ACT, RSPCA NSW, AWL, Dogs NSW, ANKC, Deathrow Pets, Yound Lawyers, PIAA, AVA. QCCC missed the plane.

[toy*dog]

I know of at least four large scale breeders who have preempted or reacted to

breaches on their property

with purchases of large guard dogs.

I know one day I'm going to open the paper and its not going to be good.

word out to any earnest investigators:

if you see a central asian or anatolian/kangal it will attack

please don't breach its territory.

Treats won't work.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up.

Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either.

i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner.

usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea.

I know a breeder who locks her dogs up at night because she feels that stops any barking and it is more secure for them. They run the property all day unless they are having puppies and they are then confined to a pen to keep them safe.

If someone were to come in with torches sneaking around in the night the dogs would react and it could be made to look like the dogs were always "locked up" rather than simply put to bed.

I also know a registered breeder who has placed pick handles at every doorway and entrance who swears if anyone comes onto his property he will beat them and will gladly do time over it if need be.

He has been visited 20 plus times over the years by RSPCA due to vexatious complaints and passed every inspection.

thats exactly what i've been thinking of late about that breeder i know ANKC reg that got dobbed in by a puppy purchaser who saw dogs in a pen and a few dogs (small toy dogs often get housed together quite happily in a pen in breeders houses). and everyone got on the band wagon including other breeders meanwhile those same breeders do the exact same things and keep their dogs the exact same way.

i often think if someone came into my property and saw my dogs inside they'd think i never let them out which is not the case at all!! thats why i am careful who i invite in and i always make sure the place is spotlessly clean so they have no reason to dob me in but these days you just don't know who is watching and waiting who simply might have a grudge on you for something completely different not even related to dogs. i mean we all know there was an ANKC breeder that sold a pup and that buyer went to a vet who then dobbed the breeder in! there's that angle too. awful awful stuff. these other people sure had a beef with this breeder and made the fact known to anyone that would listen. i was appauled. it was nasty and it scared the crap out of us, breeders picking on other breeders because they dont' like each other. dobbing each other in. nasty nasty stuff.

i just wondered whose turn it is next. heard over the years of court cases involved breeder against breeder too. doesn't put us all in a good light does it?

[Steve]

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years.

where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state.

i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across.

there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it.

anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

[toy*dog]

Dogs Victoria didnt attend - MDBA, RSPCA Australia, RSPCA ACT, RSPCA NSW, AWL, Dogs NSW, ANKC, Deathrow Pets, Yound Lawyers, PIAA, AVA. QCCC missed the plane.

okay they are saying they are one of 5 key organisations that advise the government. why are they saying that if it didn't happen. maybe it is 2 completely different things i am talking about here. i don't know then who is the other 4 that advise the government they gave us a run down of what the government regularly asks DogsVictoria too. detailed questions. can't remember exactly what it was about this was about a year ago now.