Pulling On Lead

[corvus]

Hmmm, that's a massive generalisation if I've ever heard one! Why can't you use a combination of both? I personally don't care so much about the method used but the results it gets.

I took it to mean BG found the positive method she used was more effective than correctional methods she may have tried. Her sentiment that often the problem is the way she is training a behaviour is a hallmark of effective training in my view. All the best trainers in the world will harp on this again and again. If she finds it is clearer when she uses positive reinforcement, then it does work better. She wouldn't be the first one to find that, and she won't be the last.

[huski]

Hmmm, that's a massive generalisation if I've ever heard one! Why can't you use a combination of both? I personally don't care so much about the method used but the results it gets.

I took it to mean BG found the positive method she used was more effective than correctional methods she may have tried. Her sentiment that often the problem is the way she is training a behaviour is a hallmark of effective training in my view. All the best trainers in the world will harp on this again and again. If she finds it is clearer when she uses positive reinforcement, then it does work better. She wouldn't be the first one to find that, and she won't be the last.

I took it as a general statement, not that she was just referring to her own experience.

I too found using correctional methods didn't work for my dog, but that doesn't mean that "positive" ALWAYS trumps "negative", that positive is universally better and corrections have no place in dog training. Like I said - I care less about the method used and more about whether or not it gets results. It's not about positive vs negative, it's about using what works best.

[dancinbcs]

My two were the same. Tried heel training and even choke chains without much success.

I went out and bought two sensible harnesses a few weeks back. The leash attached at the front so when they go to pull their bodies are turned in the opposite direction. It only took them one or two tries to figure out there was no point. I plan on getting them back to a normal flat lead sometime but the harnesses have been a great training tool for me No pulling at all anymore and we can all enjoy the walks.

Hi tiff-689, that sounds like a good idea. I currently walk my two with harnesses but the clip is on the back so i think it just makes it more comfortable for them to pull me.

To be of any use, the lead must clip on the front. Back clipping harnesses just encourage pulling.

Agreed, guaranteed way to train dogs to pull is to put them in a normal harness. Two dogs together in harnesses and all you need is a sled to complete the picture. Training them to walk nicely on a flat or martingale collar is a much better option.

[corvus]

I don't want to put words in BG's mouth, so I'll let her clarify what she meant. We all know that positive vs correctional training method debates are utterly pointless. There is always that one dog that was fixed with x method and another dog where x method was tried and failed and y method was successful. There are too many variables to make a valid comparison, which is why those discussions always go in vicious circles and are never resolved.

I would not say I care more about methods than results, but I certainly care about methods, and that is because I have broad training goals that I use to guide many of my decisions. The way I want to manage my dogs and the things I am prepared to do have a huge impact on the methods I use, and I find ways to use the methods I want to use successfully. I decide when I can afford to make compromises and when I cannot. That is entirely a personal decision.

The more I learn about learning theory the more I think arguments about methodology are fundamentally flawed. There are a lot of ways for a dog to learn something. If the dog learns it, the method is effective and we get the sought after result (assuming the behaviour is also maintained). There are so many ways and mostly their effectiveness comes down to how well they were applied. What kind of argument is that? As trainers, I think the best thing we can do is recognise that there are dozens of ways to achieve the desired result and select the one that is suitabed to our skills, our ability to manage the balance of reinforcers, and our assessment of the risk to ourselves, other animals, and the dog. If we are honest about those things and honest with ourselves about what would make us feel comfortable, there is no reason for methodology arguments to even enter into it. It's all much of a muchness.

ETA Both my dogs walk on normal harnesses and they don't pull. They have both been on harnesses from the get-go and neither ever really pulled much.

Edited September 19, 2011 by corvus

[ludwig09]

Tools are a bandaid in loose leash walking, but that doesn't mean they don't work or that they can't help you make a start. I know dogs that have been walked on head collars or front attach harnesses for the vast majority of their lives and they are happy and their owners are happy. Whatever works for you. I don't think people need feel guilty if they just want to permanently manage pulling with some kind of training tool assuming it keeps working indefinitely.

Anyway, I like this page for some really great, simple tips for how to avoid rewarding pulling and what to reward instead: http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/leash-walking/

ETA Leashes and flat collars are tools as well. In my mind the aim is to have the leash there for emergencies, but we have a lot of 'emergencies' in day to day life. I don't see why, if I have to rely on leashes sometimes, other people shouldn't rely on head collars, correctional collars, or no-pull harnesses sometimes.

Thanks corvus. Thats how i feel. I am trying my hardest to train my dogs on my own as funds are a little tight for a trainer so if these tools can assist in the process i am comfortable with that.

[ludwig09]

My two were the same. Tried heel training and even choke chains without much success.

I went out and bought two sensible harnesses a few weeks back. The leash attached at the front so when they go to pull their bodies are turned in the opposite direction. It only took them one or two tries to figure out there was no point. I plan on getting them back to a normal flat lead sometime but the harnesses have been a great training tool for me No pulling at all anymore and we can all enjoy the walks.

Hi tiff-689, that sounds like a good idea. I currently walk my two with harnesses but the clip is on the back so i think it just makes it more comfortable for them to pull me.

To be of any use, the lead must clip on the front. Back clipping harnesses just encourage pulling.

Agreed, guaranteed way to train dogs to pull is to put them in a normal harness. Two dogs together in harnesses and all you need is a sled to complete the picture. Training them to walk nicely on a flat or martingale collar is a much better option.

Yes. Sometimes i do feel like all i need is the sleigh and presents and i would be santa clause.

[ButerflyGirl]

having done the traditional obedience and now moving to clicker training and positive reinforcement I would definately say that positive works much better than corrections. Yes it may take a little longer, but I often find if the dog isnt catching on it's the way I'm teaching it, usually I havent broken the task down small enough, and he doesnt know what is expected.

Hmmm, that's a massive generalisation if I've ever heard one! Why can't you use a combination of both? I personally don't care so much about the method used but the results it gets.

A good trainer can have a dog walking on a loose leash in minutes, it shouldn't be something that takes a very long time to teach if the owner has the right training program and timing.

Hmmm, that's a massive generalisation if I've ever heard one! Why can't you use a combination of both? I personally don't care so much about the method used but the results it gets.

I took it to mean BG found the positive method she used was more effective than correctional methods she may have tried. Her sentiment that often the problem is the way she is training a behaviour is a hallmark of effective training in my view. All the best trainers in the world will harp on this again and again. If she finds it is clearer when she uses positive reinforcement, then it does work better. She wouldn't be the first one to find that, and she won't be the last.

I took it as a general statement, not that she was just referring to her own experience.

I too found using correctional methods didn't work for my dog, but that doesn't mean that "positive" ALWAYS trumps "negative", that positive is universally better and corrections have no place in dog training. Like I said - I care less about the method used and more about whether or not it gets results. It's not about positive vs negative, it's about using what works best.

Ok to clarify this I probably should have said "In my experience, with my dog...." He is 40kg of intelligent, stubborn, independent dog, and I found that I was getting very frustrated with (slip collar) correction methods, for me I felt like it ended up being a battle of wills between us, him pulling one way me pulling the other way, but with the promise of food (very food orientated) he will do almost anything for me.

I think another thing I prefer about positive reinforcement training (in my case with my dog) is that I am focused more on what he is doing right than what he is doing wrong. Again just a personal thing, I get the "yay, he's getting it" felling, all those baby steps seem to add up.

Also I think I should clarify that for me positive reinforcement does include "corrections" to a degree, but it is more a communication that to my dog that that isn't what I want, a growly "ah" can work wonders or just even just "Ah ah" as a "no thats not what I want"

Just sharing my experience, not wanting to get into a "this is the only way" type argument, sorry if it was interpreted like this