Persistence And Extinction Curves

[corvus]

Do you like a persistent dog with a typically long extinction curve, or a behaviourally flexible dog with a short extinction curve? Or something in between?

[Cosmolo]

It depends on the dog. For my dogs that i have trained since they were puppies i'd prefer them to be closer to the high end of persistent. For clients dogs,assuming they are primarily companions, preferably the opposite in most cases.

[Aidan3]

For clients dogs,assuming they are primarily companions, preferably the opposite in most cases.

If only

[corvus]

At some point, is persistence a symptom of a lack of behavioural adaptability that may be a source of stress in the dog's life?

[Aidan3]

That's a good question, I suppose it would depend on how they handled it maybe?

[Erny]

At some point, is persistence a symptom of a lack of behavioural adaptability that may be a source of stress in the dog's life?

I would expect that as to whether it relates to stress may depend on what the persisting behaviour is. Also may depend on previous experience/learning in the dog's life and the dog's relationship with its owner, assuming that the owner is a part of the equation.

[corvus]

I was more suggesting that the persistance was an indicator of a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility, and the lack of adaptability is the source of stress rather than specific behaviours. For example, is a persistent dog also more likely to have difficulties coping with novelty?

[Erny]

I was more suggesting that the persistance was an indicator of a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility ...

Yeah - but I'm making the suggestion that persistance of a behaviour in the presence of extinction (so to speak) isn't necessarily an indicator of a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility in response to your OP. However ....

... and the lack of adaptability is the source of stress rather than specific behaviours. For example, is a persistent dog also more likely to have difficulties coping with novelty?

Depends on why the dog is persistent. If however you are asserting that in this hypothetical dog's instance its persistance is undoubtedly due to a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility, then I could imagine where new and novel experiences may be more difficult for the dog to adapt to.

IMO

Edited September 18, 2011 by Erny

[corvus]

I was more suggesting that the persistance was an indicator of a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility ...

Yeah - but I'm making the suggestion that persistance of a behaviour in the presence of extinction (so to speak) isn't necessarily an indicator of a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility in response to your OP. However ....

No, I think it's safe to say it's not. I was just wondering hypothetically if there might be a point where it is and what the implications of that might be. I read a paper over the weekend that suggested mice that are very persistent may well have a problem with serotonin uptake. A long extinction curve is generally considered maladaptive, but I was interested to ponder whether it was or not in dogs given they have quite different selection pressures on them. The simple answer is another question. To what extent is persistence valued in dogs?

... and the lack of adaptability is the source of stress rather than specific behaviours. For example, is a persistent dog also more likely to have difficulties coping with novelty?

Depends on why the dog is persistent. If however you are asserting that in this hypothetical dog's instance its persistance is undoubtedly due to a lack of adaptability/behavioural flexibility, then I could imagine where new and novel experiences may be more difficult for the dog to adapt to.

IMO

What other reasons might there be for a dog to be persistent? I can imagine if they have a strong reward history, or the behaviour has been under a variable reinforcement schedule. But it ought to hold across all learnt behaviours to be a kind of a 'trait persistence' that I'm thinking of.

[Erny]

What other reasons might there be for a dog to be persistent?

One of my first thoughts was where a dog has owners who have already used extinction to train their dog out of an unwanted behaviour, but quit too early when the behaviour escalated as a result of an extinction burst. And potentially done this with that or numerous other behaviours.

[corvus]

One of my first thoughts was where a dog has owners who have already used extinction to train their dog out of an unwanted behaviour, but quit too early when the behaviour escalated as a result of an extinction burst. And potentially done this with that or numerous other behaviours.

A generalised variable reinforcement schedule? Don't we kind of do this anyway? Ride the extinction burst and then reward it to get duration and maybe effort? I have with Kivi. I think it is likely doing it with a lot of different things improved his persistence, but only with known behaviours. Not overall, I would say.

[Erny]

Don't we kind of do this anyway? Ride the extinction burst and then reward it to get duration and maybe effort? I have with Kivi. I think it is likely doing it with a lot of different things improved his persistence, but only with known behaviours. Not overall, I would say.

In your instance, perhaps not. As I mentioned, it depends on the dog's length and breadth of experience/s. Perhaps I'm missing the point of your post. It has begun as somewhat generalised and it is this that makes it difficult to answer. As mentioned, "it depends". It might be better to be specific, if you want to refer to a particular dog? In that instance, a historical account of the dog's prior learning experiences and behaviours in question would be required.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Erny

[corvus]

No, I don't want to refer to a particular dog. It's a general, information-seeking question. You haven't mentioned your preference. Do you like dogs with short extinction curves or long extinction curves? Is there a point where it might be too long or too short? I side-tracked myself thinking about the adaptability of long extinction curves or lack thereof. It's really a side issue, but an interesting discussion nonetheless.

[Jumabaar]

Demi's extinction curve is a plummet straight down. I have had to reteach soooo many behaviours because there is no extinction burst, she just stops doing them if they are left more than a few days without reinforcement. i.e.- I have taught drop 6 times in the past 2 years and unless I am continually practicing it just disappears and I have to reteach. This can happen in the space of a weeks so Really frustrating!

Abby's extinction curve.... well there isn't one. Once a behaviour has been taught thats it- I don't have a choice that is the way the behaviour remains regardless of me every rewarding it again. It is useful because there is never any retraining, painful because any bad habits have to eliminated by punishment rather than ignored, and even then she generally only stops temporarily before starting again. i.e. walking on the table- I taught her to get on the bed via a small coffee table and she generalised this to ALL tables and 3years later I am still embarrassed to go to a friends house and have abby get on their table!

Abby has no trouble coping with novel stimuli. Nor does Demi.

I much prefer most of my other dogs with more moderate extinction curves. Long enough to capture a behaviour reliably and fix it over a few weeks and have it last for a few months. But not so long that annoying traits and things that I want to retrain are impossible.

[corvus]

Demi's extinction curve is a plummet straight down.

Yeah, that's what Kivi is like. Makes it dead easy to change problem behaviour (which hardly ever occcurs because it's much easier to avoid in the first place), but he takes quite a bit of babying through if I'm shaping. I also find his behaviours need a lot of maintenance.

Abby's extinction curve.... well there isn't one. Once a behaviour has been taught thats it- I don't have a choice that is the way the behaviour remains regardless of me every rewarding it again. It is useful because there is never any retraining, painful because any bad habits have to eliminated by punishment rather than ignored, and even then she generally only stops temporarily before starting again. i.e. walking on the table- I taught her to get on the bed via a small coffee table and she generalised this to ALL tables and 3years later I am still embarrassed to go to a friends house and have abby get on their table!

That sounds kind of familiar, too! I have learnt to be so attentive to whatever Erik is doing. He's always learning, and if I don't take control of what he's learning he tends to learn to do things I really don't like very much. They are always difficult to shift and spontaneously reoccur on a regular basis when I do shift them, unless I punish it. And punishing comes with its own problems. He is SO wily.

I much prefer most of my other dogs with more moderate extinction curves. Long enough to capture a behaviour reliably and fix it over a few weeks and have it last for a few months.

That sounds quite pleasant. Maybe one day I will get a normal dog.

A while back I was talking on another list about proactive coping styles and long extinction curves and this fellow who apparently trained military dogs to do nutty things like jumping out of aeroplanes or something got all excited and said they find exactly that with their dogs. They are quick to respond with threats, form strong routines, and have long extinction curves. There are also physiological links, like possibly these animals have weaker stress responses. Well, it's more complicated than that, but that was the gross oversimplification. He was especially interested in that because he said he thought their dogs were unusually chilled about things like jumping out of aeroplanes.