JB1824 Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) Hello, Thanks for all your replies. When they first said they used a natural diet I thought it would have been good and I was thinking about using one when it becomes an adult, but I never expected something so complicated like that! I don't even know where to get half the ingredients from... How should I change the diet to dry food? I only know of switching between dry foods which would be mixing the new one with the old. Is it the same for these kinds of diets? The breeder will be sending us off with a day's worth of meals I think. Is it cheaper to feed raw/homemade compared to a good quality kibble? Mason_Gibbs, yes the breeder is registered! They recently won one of the categories at a dog show... so I assumed the diet must be good enough Edited September 15, 2011 by JB1824 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Why don't you ask the breeder to explain the diet and the ingredients? As in what each ingredient is for. Unless the diet has been made up by a vet/naturopath/dietitian I wouldn't be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 If the breeder is sending a days worth of meals, then you could use half of a meal and combine you choosen dry and raw with that. For example, use half of the breakfast and add half of your chosen dry for lunch just feed the raw portion dinner mix half and half of the dry repeat it the next day. To be honest given the amount of cereal etc the pup has to digest, I don't think you'll have any worries changing over to a quality dry and raw. What I would be careful of, is adding too many new things especially lamb, roo, etc, if the pup has not had them before. Change over and get onto your basic dry and raw and then add your other things one at a time, over a perdiod of weeks. That way you can also work out, if anything doesn't agree with the puppy. Your pup isn't going to miss out on anything, if you feed a premium dry for one meal and raw the next, providing your raw is is on consumable bone, your calcium/phos ratios will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 (edited) Too much bran, oat and wheat in that diet for my liking, they are all just fillers. I would go with meat and a good quality kibble, some bones, sardines, eggs and I know some people ad rice or veg but I dont. My other dog that cant eat certain things gets a cup of Canidae grain free, about 300g meat and a bone each day. ETA I will get a photo later of my pup who is going to also be shown, he looks good on the Royal Canin Lab, lots of breeders use it.. Edited September 15, 2011 by Mason_Gibbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB1824 Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Thanks for the advice. I've emailed the breeder Would bran and oats, etc. be for fibre? Because in my canine nutrition lecture (very brief overview), we were told that there should be cooked cereal present as the carbohydrate/fibre source at a >2:1 ratio with meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esky the husky Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The thing with supercoat though, is it has a lot of filler in there, and no real quality ingredients, adding more grains in there would be too much IMO. I'll be interested to hear what the breeder says to you about the diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB1824 Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Well, they said they feed it to their dogs, and the diet's based on "The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog and Cat" by Juliette de Bairacli Levy. Has anyone read this? I had a look at some reviews on Amazon and some other website. It sounds like some of the information in the book is out of date such as the dried fruits someone mentioned earlier (apparently the author recommended grapes and raisins! and the reason for wrapping bran around the bones was to protect the stomach/intestines from bone fragments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 bran on a bone protects the stomach from bone fragments - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I would do as RSG suggests. Choose basically the type of meat the use ie beef, lamb chicken etc if you wanted you could get some supercoat then swap over but I would be inclined to go with something better from the beginning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB1824 Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Hmm.. The cayenne pepper, coconut and carrot are to protect the digestive tract from worms......... I wonder who the author of that book is! What kinds of bones are suitable for a Labrador puppy? I assume you'd start small and then use bigger bones as the puppy gets bigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 You start with bone that they can consume and keep it that way throughout their lives. Puppies you can start with chicken necks, wings and carcass portions. They can usually handle them fine. You can also try some lamb flaps. As the pups gets older the pieces get bigger, to reduce the risk of choking and also they are a good size to exercise the jaws and provide an extra activity for the dog. Some things that you can use, when age appropriate are lamb flaps whole or half lamb necks rabbits whole or half chicken carcass, wings, half chooks roo tails (a 5 or 6 inch piece ) They become meals in themselves and you can rotate between the red and white meats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I think the bran on the chicken wings is an old idea to provide the roughage that feathers would have provided if the dog had access the whole bird - not that they would have deliberately eaten the feathers, but that some feather matter would have been ingested alongside the meat and provided roughage. Same for fur on rabbits etc. The diet you have been provided is very complictaed and old fashioned, and in my view quite unnecessary. But Juliette de Bairacli Levy was a well respected very early Afghan breeder and herbalist, a proponent of natural feeding long before it was fashionable and when rearing practices and prepared foods were pretty basic and refrigeration not common. Breeders had to deal with parasites and serious diseases like distemper without modern medicine and did try to use diet and herbs more to prevent and treat serious issues, they had few other options. I love her books, her passion and dedication shines through them. But it is very old work, you have much easier options conveniently at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Good lord, what a lot of work! I wouldn't go to that much trouble for my kids let alone my dogs. Like others have said, source a top quality kibble and throw in some raw meaty bones and you'll have a good diet that's easy to manage and simple to maintain. And it will allow you plenty of time to enjoy your dogs, which *that* particular diet won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Yes I did wonder right at the start if this was following Juliette de Bairacli Levy. Personally I think she was light years ahead of her peers at her time, as others have said she was living in a time where worms and disease were not "easily" prevented/treated as they are now, and probably weren't all that well understood. I would think the ingredients were based 75% on experience and 25% on old time folk medicine (which I have a fair amount of faith in as well, so not knocking it) so to follow her diet now IMO is not necessarily hocum, but it's not something I would follow blindly as science has gone forward and there is a lot more knowledge easily accessible. That said I don't believe she would have had access to Supercoats and Weetbix so I think a fair bit has been lost in translation If I was the breeder raising my pups in this way I would supply the new buyers with 7-10 days worth of ALL the food and additives they need. If these breeders don't do this then I would be inclined to ditch all the additives immediately. I really doubt this would upset the pup's tummy. You may decide you're happy to stay with Supercoat and a lot of people are happy with it so it's not automatically "bad" in which case you could buy a big bag of it straight off - otherwise buy a small bag as this is what the pup is used to and a variety of meat and bones as already suggested. Once the pup is settled into it's new home (7-10 days) I would start to change over to a new dry food if you want to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 (edited) Most of this sounds like it is an adaptation of Juliette de Bairacli Levy (The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog and Cat) who was a visionary and leader in her time and is where the modern 'raw diet' movement really started. Many people have found success over the years feeding a Levy style diet and some long time breeders still feed this way. But there are a few other things added, including the kibble, which means it isn't exacly Levy any more. Not what I would feed, but I do suggest you talk it over with the breeder and get them to explain what everything is for. 1 Bone (lamb or beef neck cut down the middle and across, chicken wings or rib bones rubbed with oil (or water) and rolled in bran. The logic behind providing the 'roughage' on the bone was to imitate the role of the hair and skin. It was originally thought that the dog needed to eat prey with the skin intact to 'protect' its stomach and intestines from the bone (because when bones came out the other end they were often wrapped in hair and hide). In the absence of that the above was a method that was thought to help imitate it and make the bones 'pass through' easier. We now know this to be not true and it isnt necessary, but the practice does persist in some quarters. Edited September 16, 2011 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 out of interest, is there any issues with the individual verterbrae when dogs are eating roo tails and lamb necks?? I am alsways concerned they verterbrae would seperate and thus be able to be swallowed and cause an issue. I have never given them but have access so would feed if they stayed intact and the dogs just ate the meat tendons etc but the bones stayed together if you get what I mean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Mine eat the lot bones and all. Doubt they stay together as they all get crunched up together and down the hatch ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I have Whippets though so I am not sure if they would do that. A friend of mine lost a Dobe from eating verterbrae bones so I find it very hard to bring myself to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB1824 Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Thanks for the insight espinay, Diva and sandra Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Mostly the ligaments etc that hold the vertrebrae together do their job. remember though.. bones must be size appropriate. 2 or 3 vertebrae may be fine for a cav, but deadly for a golden retriever .....and NEVER feed neck 'chops' our dogs (kooliex) have always eaten roo tails, sheep/goat necks etc and never had a problem ..mind you they are not teh completely bare ones..ours are fed as a meal - so are complete with meat I would never feed necks/tails bare of meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Very interesting thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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