doberkids Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Hi there I recently took my 8 year old dobes for their annual check ups etc. On their thyroid one was rated at 10, and one was a touch less than 10. They have put on about 2 kilos each over winter (food + less exercise) so the vet thinks they may have hyperthyroidism. A "normal" reading is 13. It doesn't sound like their results are a lot below the "normal" reading, but I'm not sure what that means. I am going to have some more blood taken and sent to the US for some more formal tests before I put them on medication. However I was wondering if anyone here had any experience in this space? Any natural remedies or thoughts? Thanks Edited September 12, 2011 by doberkids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 just to clear this up HYPER excess/more HYPO less/under so , My guess is your results suggest hyPO thyroidism ..as in not enough of the hormones ..does that sound right? there are a few folks here who have had experience ... hope you get some help/advice soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetherglow Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) What Persephone said! The difference between hypo- and hyper- is extremely important! Hypothyroidism in dogs (and humans!) generally causes problems with the skin, hair, mental speed and energy levels, not just weight gain. Have your dogs been noticeably lethargic or seem a bit slower in thinking, developed skin problems or dry, brittle hair and bald patches? Do they want to stay in the warm more than usual? I have a lot of experience with human thyroid problems, and I know it's common enough in dogs that it's a little surprising your vet needs to send blood results to the US. Do you know what the tests are? Do you know exactly what the first test was for? Normally thyroid tests will test for thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) which is made by the pituitary gland, and levels of the thyroid hormone T4. I'm not sure if a T3 hormone test is available for dogs, but it's not always ordered for humans either. Sometimes a cholesterol test will be done as well if the vet suspects an underactive thyroid, as lots of hypothyroid dogs also have high cholesterol. Most cases of canine hypothyroidism are due to the immune system destroying the thyroid or the thyroid shrinking, and so stimulating it with natural iodine supplements won't do much because the cells that can make use of supplements are no longer there. Replacement hormones are pretty much the only treatment, and getting the dose right can be a bit tricky. It's really important that you know for sure whether your dogs are hyper- or hypo, though, because stimulating an overactive (hyper) thyroid or suppressing an underactive (hypo) one can be very dangerous. Don't try it until you know for sure, especially if your dogs's only symptom is that they've put a bit of winter weight on. That could just be that they've been enjoying the quiet life. Edited September 12, 2011 by LappieHappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Yes, you are correct pers HYPO is / under active but that does not necessarily mean that it will always be so, I would recheck in a couple of months and if still HYPO then medicate as required. Lucky it is NOT too serious if kept under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbesotted Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 BUT ( isnt there always a but??) the response to supplementation etc is dependent upon what is the actual cause of a low T$ reading.. also the "normal " range is quite wide so being below the normal range is NOT GOOD .. by the time a dog is showing pronounced symptoms of thyroid disease it is usually in an advanced stage. the blood tests for thyroid conditions should always include: T4, Free T4, T3, Free T3 and TGAA. i would also strongly recommend having the bloods sent to Dr Jean Dodds for testing and reports. http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM helen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Last month I tested two of my kids for thyroid problems through Jean Dodd's Lab (Hemopet) in the US. Both were asymptomatic and it was for breeding purposes that they were tested. Their ages are 16 months and 26 months. One came back "normal", the other with an abnormal TgAA indicating that she is in the early stages of heritable autoimmune thyroiditis, and the comment with it was that "We treat these cases immediately to prevent further destruction of the thyroid gland by this progressive process". Cost for the tests were $75US but on top of that you have the vet bill for pulling the blood here, lab processing (spinning the blood) and the postage to the US which was a biggie. We ordered the Thyroid 5 test but should have also asked for a TSH to be done, but I didn't know that as I was expecting both tests to be normal. The girl was in season when I tested, so although I don't think it will alter anything I am going to retest in 3 months time with Hemopet and also another lab in the US and hope that the results are different. I have done a lot of reading in the last few weeks, with everything saying you must not breed from a dog with this condition, but nowhere can I find why...... Neither of her parents are thyroid affected. So I guess my question is if I put her to a non affected dog what would happen. If anybody has any links which would help - happy for you to point me to them thankx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 What did they propose treating with, Ptolomy? I don't know anything that can stop autoimmune thyroiditis, except perhaps immunosuppressive drugs, and I don't think I'd care to go there since all have side effects (and since my understanding is that the presence of thyroglobulin auto-antibodies often, but do not always, lead to clinical hypothyroidism). It is recommend not to breed from dogs that test positive for thyroglobulin auto-antibodies, as several studies indicate that it is a highly heritable condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Recommend 6-12 weeks of Soloxine ® or equivalent product at 0.1 mg per 12-15 lbs twice daily (e.g. 0 . 2 - 0. 25 mg BID). Retest thyroid profile in 2-4 months drawing the sample 4-6 hours post-pill (to reassess levels which should be upper 1/3 to 25% above the resting ranges, and see if thyroid AA levels are waning). Staranais - all the reading I have done recommends not breeding because it is a highly heritable condition, but I cannot find any of those studies to back up the claims. I want something that says if I breed her - out of the 6 resulting puppies 3 will end up with the same condition and mum will have an autoimmune meltdown as a result - very easy to understand and clear cut - and I can't find it anywhere. As I said before throw in the fact that you mate her to a clear dog and I am struggling to find anything...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) There is a really good review at the Tuft's Canine and Feline Breeding and Genetics Conference from 2009, by Ray Nachreiner, I'm not sure if you can access that somehow though? It outlined the studies they've done in beagles & borzois investigating the heritability of TgAA. Apparently this was the largest one, although I haven't looked at it myself: Benjamin SA, Stephens LC, Hamilton BF, Saunders WJ, Lee AC, Angleton GM, Mallinckrodt CH. Associations between lymphocytic thyroiditis, hypothyroidism, and thyroid neoplasia in beagles. Vet Pathol. 1996;33:486-94. ETA, in case you can't get the review, the basic gist was that they've done several good studies in several breeds that show that elevated TgAA is strongly heritable, but they're not yet sure of the mode of inheritance. Also, they know that not every dog with elevated TgAA will go on to become hypothyroid - it may be a little like hip dysplasia in that you sometimes need both a genetic predisposition and certain environmental factors to display the symptoms. I don't really understand what the Soloxine is supposed to achieve, if the body is making auto-antibodies to thyroglobulin, then pumping more thyroid hormone replacer into the body isn't going to stop that process? Edited September 13, 2011 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetherglow Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I'd be worried about breeding a bitch with thyroid problems for multiple reasons - heritability of thyroid problems, the effects of abnormal thyroid hormones on the reproductive cycle of the bitch (irregular cycles, infertility, possible loss of pregnancy due to the interactions between thyroid and reproductive hormones), and the association between thyroid and other autoimmune diseases. It isn't as clear-cut as being able to say that a certain percentage of puppies will be affected, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 (edited) It would be extremely rare for a dog to prove to have HyPER Thyroidism. Cats with thyroids out of whack are normally HyPER and dogs with thyroids out of whack are normally HyPO. Having a thyroid which is not functioning to optimum is not uncommon (as per Lappie Happy's post above) however, Lappie Happy, the problem with the Aussie Laboratory Tests is that they are not as thorough as those conducted in the USA. In addition to that, the guage for analysis is also not particularly thorough, whereas Dr Jean Dodds (USA) has established base-line thyroid levels in relation to not only size of dog (which is about the only criteria used in Aussie) but also breed of dog and age of dog. I applaude the Vet who recommended bloods be drawn and sent to the USA. The cost of the test including international courier fee and local vet fee for drawing of blood (and spinning down to serum) would come to $200.00. The figure varies from one moment to the next depending on the variation in our AUS -vs- USA exchange rate. To the OP : What part of the thyroid test showed a value of "10" ??? Edited September 13, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetherglow Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 It would be extremely rare for a dog to prove to have HyPER Thyroidism. Cats with thyroids out of whack are normally HyPER and dogs with thyroids out of whack are normally HyPO. Having a thyroid which is not functioning to optimum is not uncommon (as per Lappie Happy's post above) however, Lappie Happy, the problem with the Aussie Laboratory Tests is that they are not as thorough as those conducted in the USA. In addition to that, the guage for analysis is also not particularly thorough, whereas Dr Jean Dodds (USA) has established base-line thyroid levels in relation to not only size of dog (which is about the only criteria used in Aussie) but also breed of dog and age of dog. I applaude the Vet who recommended bloods be drawn and sent to the USA. The cost of the test including international courier fee and local vet fee for drawing of blood (and spinning down to serum) would come to $200.00. The figure varies from one moment to the next depending on the variation in our AUS -vs- USA exchange rate. To the OP : What part of the thyroid test showed a value of "10" ??? Yes, I've had a look at Dr Dodds' website, and she appears to be very thorough. I'd much rather see more information than less, and if it isn't standard to have all of those done in Australia I'd definitely send bloods overseas for a thorough look at all the factors. I'm more used to human thyroids, and even with those it can sometimes be hard to find a specialist who will consistently test for both T3 and T4 and for thyroid antibodies. I had assumed that the tests were at least available for dogs in Australia, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doberkids Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks all. I was on the phone to the vet, so didn't hear properly if it was hypo or hyper... Sounds like it is hypo... Does anyone have a view on the test results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doberkids Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 The vet dIdnt specify what part was tested, just that the thyroid levels were subnormal, at a rate of 10 and a "normal" reading is 13... It's the second time they have been tested( previously we were told all ok, ) so I didn't worry or research further... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elise+Hudson Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 I would find out which test this reading was on. If it was total t4 which it sounds like, 10 isnt very low. And dogs with any other illness or stress can have low t4 readings, that is called sick euthyroid syndrome and is quite common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The vet dIdnt specify what part was tested, perhaps ask for the results in print ? That way you will know exactly which component the results are for .. and that will be a help to decide on further action, perhaps It will also help you understand what it all does/means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doberkids Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 That's a very good idea persephone, I will do that right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Just wrote a response and lost it, so here is the short version - I can elaborate if necessary. The result was most likely a total T4 which is common in many screening profiles from commercial labs. Normal total T4 indicates a normal T4. Low total T4 doesn't mean a great deal considered alone. A great number of non-thyroidal things may cause a total T4 to be reduced and it cannot be used alone to diagnose hypothyroidism. This is important to remember in skin disease, as some conditions will respond to thyroid supplementation even if hypothyroidism is not the primary problem. Investigation of hypothyroidism is only warranted if you have concurrent clinical signs consistent with hypothyroidism. Investigation will generally involve at least a free T4 by equilibrium dialysis and a TSH level. Testing the anti-thyroid antibodies can add weight to a diagnosis, but their presence alone doesn't indicate hypothyroidism, and doesn't warrant treatment if there are no clinical signs or other abnormalities on blood work. Recent thinking is that autoimmune thyroiditis and thyroid atrophy are part of the same spectrum and not distinct diseases. Regardless, it is important to identify ANY other underlying diseases as they may affect testing results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doberkids Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thanks Rappie. I'll wait until I receive the results in writing. I'll post them here and see if that can help me out more.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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