Interesting Read..

[toy*dog]

Our use of a PI so far has been when our members have been accused of fraud and not providing necessary infomation etc as we didnt have the skills and resources required to do it ourselves but the breeders knew we were investigating it and so far have been cleared.

we keep saying this VCA/dogsvictoria members for years and years but you'd think with allthe membership fees that they collect if they were really serious they'd be doing the same thing and either hiring animal officers to investigate or doing as MDBA do and hiring a PI, they can afford it as they issue an annual profit report and its thousands of dollars profit. they do spend a lot of it on upgrades to the dog centres and what not but it is a big concern amongst our members and has been for years so instead of sending letters out to members asking questions about their escapades they'd get more active and serious. but nope, haven't heard a thing of what the puppyfarm committee is doing.

[Steve]

If dogs are suffering there is a system in place for the places to be inspected and action taken, council, police, and RSPCA are charged with this - there is no need to go in under cover of darkness because the same dogs and the same conditions are there in daylight and when you come through the front gate.

it is justified doing it through raids and other means because they (animal rights people and others) say that police, RSPCA and council refuse to act? and also the police were actually operating puppy farms themselves. many people on here have said that RSPCA are weak and sometimes don't even act when it is infront of their face that there is a cruelty case going on. i haven't had that problem myself they've acted fairly quickly in my experience. so this is their reasoning? they also go on to say the laws have failed these dogs, they can only act when the dogs are near to death. RSPCA/animal rights people. so they intervene to save the dogs and one video they had up, don't know if its still there but they went to take a look at the dogs and one puppy was lying still on the ground so Debra and her friend picked up the pup it was fitting i think clearly a sick little baby. they took it in the car and tried to rush it to the vets. it ended up dying. but it was in the farm in a pen on its own and no owner or anyone was in sight.

O.K. So is it O.K. for someone to accuse you of something and for them to break into your property and do this to you? Why are you more special and have more rights - because you say you dont do these things - so do they!

Why do you think they refuse to act? The police are not operating puppy farms - there is one who operates a breeding kennel.which has been inspected by authorities, which is inspected almost daily by puppy buyers. What they are saying is cruel isnt cruel according to the law and in some cases according to science.

If we condone this toy dog then I can say you breed purebreds and that is cruel ,you feed them home cooked human food, you keep them inside, you dont take them for walks, you dont vaccinate each year so I will come to your house and tell the world about how cruel you are .You cant just let any old body make up their own rules and do what ever they want because they have a different idea on what is cruel according to those who have been charged with ensuring POCTAA is not being breached and that mandatory codes are being observed. Do you rally think that the RSPCA would sieze dogs and do what they did to the breeder who debarked them and not act on this stuff if it was as bad as they say it is?

Edited September 21, 2011 by Steve

[toy*dog]

O.K. So is it O.K. for someone to accuse you of something and for them to break into your property and do this to you? Why are you more special and have more rights - because you say you dont do these things - so do they!

Why do you think they refuse to act? The police are not operating puppy farms - there is one who operates a breeding kennel.which has been inspected by authorities, which is inspected almost daily by puppy buyers. What they are saying is cruel isnt cruel according to the law and in some cases according to science.

If we condone this toy dog then I can say you breed dogs and that is cruel ,you feed them home cooked human food, you keep them inside, you dont take them for walks, you dont vaccinate each year so I will come to your house and tell the world about how cruel you are .You cant just let any old body make up their own rules and do what ever they want because they have a different idea on what is cruel according to those who have been charged with ensuring POCTAA is not being breached and that mandatory codes are being observed. Do you rally think that the RSPCA would sieze dogs and do what they did to the breeder who debarked them and not act on this stuff if it was as bad as they say it is?

im not really on anyone's side here just reporting what i am observing really. i didn't say its right to do that, after reading what she does and actually meeting this person, i did get the feeling that maybe if i put a foot wrong i could be the one on the receiving end here simply because some one is working off a tip off.

it just seems to me its all cloak and dagger stuff, people who say they are ethical breeders when they are not behind closed doors, people who say they are rescuing dogs when they are not behind closed doors. so who do you believe who do you not. i guess meeting this person that was the leader i got the feeling that she doesn't take on face value what people tell her that maybe she has to see for herself. i got tarred with the same brush as the rest that abuse dogs i got the feeling of that in my encounters. to the point where i had to not have any contact as i could be the one targetted from the mob of people against anyone as far as i could see that breeds dogs point blank. someone saying they are ethical and care and all that falls on deaf ears as unscrupulous people know how to talk the talk and walk the walk and say all that as well.

so its a messy business all this, and i do prefer now to support afar and keep up with what is going on. my mother didn't like the fact i was talking to her and met her she said she sounded like a (im sorry for lack of a better word here) a *thug* going into properties and raiding and all that she does.

i'll PM you steve i have to tell you something.

Edited September 21, 2011 by toy*dog

[toy*dog]

you dont take them for walks, you dont vaccinate each year so I will come to your house and tell the world about how cruel you are

did i say i don't vaccinate every year and dont walk my dogs? i certainly do do all those things, i hope you were just using that as an example of what they can say i hope its not thought i don't do those things because i believe in vaccinations every year and i also believe in exercising my dogs and training every day in actual fact

[Steve]

you dont take them for walks, you dont vaccinate each year so I will come to your house and tell the world about how cruel you are

did i say i don't vaccinate every year and dont walk my dogs? i certainly do do all those things, i hope you were just using that as an example of what they can say i hope its not thought i don't do those things because i believe in vaccinations every year and i also believe in exercising my dogs and training every day in actual fact

Sorry Toy dog - no I wasnt accusing you of doing that and I have no way of knowing either way i was just using it as an exaple of what could be said about any one. You see I think its cruel to vaccinate your dogs every year and I really really hate the fact that in order to comply with mandatory codes a breeder get no option.

[toy*dog]

you dont take them for walks, you dont vaccinate each year so I will come to your house and tell the world about how cruel you are

did i say i don't vaccinate every year and dont walk my dogs? i certainly do do all those things, i hope you were just using that as an example of what they can say i hope its not thought i don't do those things because i believe in vaccinations every year and i also believe in exercising my dogs and training every day in actual fact

Sorry Toy dog - no I wasnt accusing you of doing that and I have no way of knowing either way i was just using it as an exaple of what could be said about any one. You see I think its cruel to vaccinate your dogs every year and I really really hate the fact that in order to comply with mandatory codes a breeder get no option.

no worries i thought that might be the case but i was unsure. i thought maybe i indicated that somewhere in my posts :

we actually get them done every 18 months or so to be fair with the adults and i do know of alot of other breeders who also think the same way just vaccinate their young pups ofcourse but when they reach a certain age they are not done and they are still very much alive and healthy and well. there's evidence to suggest that we only ever need to be vaccinating our dogs once and then they are covered for life. there's been alot of literature on the subject which is very interesting to read. but i guess that doesn't sit well with people who don't breed dogs.

Edited September 21, 2011 by toy*dog

[BJean]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

But Lilli, it's OK because the RSPCA and the Councils wouldn't do anything about the puppy farmers. Their actions are excused, as they are just speaking up for the animals, who can't speak for themselves.

The same as it's OK to steal a dog if you think it's being neglected or you find it wandering the streets in less than idea condition.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Pav Lova

[BJean]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

But Lilli, it's OK because the RSPCA and the Councils wouldn't do anything about the puppy farmer and their actions are excused, as they are just speaking up for the animals, who can't speak for themselves.

The same as it's OK to steal a dog if you think it's being neglected or you find it wandering the streets in less than idea condition.

Always two literary masterpieces () come to mind:

Animal Farm and Darkness At Noon.

The psychology and politics are all the same.

Edited September 21, 2011 by lilli

[toy*dog]

sorry just remember another issue we are talking about registered breeders thinking they are superior but can be as bad as backyarders or commercial farms who dont' look after their dogs welfare.

over many years i have saved a few from REGISTERED BREEDERS, the same breeders who claim they have champion after champion and what you see in the ring healthy dogs and their reputation you'd think they would have the same at home wouldn't you. nope.

i've had dogs handed to me with so many fleas jumping about and a sentence came with the dog, look after my baby??? the dog stunk. the dog was looking all confused when the person dumped him in my arms. this dog had had 4 or 5 homes before us and this is where he stayed for the rest of his life.

another 4 dogs i got from a top breeder and i got told that they didn't want them because they weren't to standard in looks. then promptly told me ( and i was really suprised at this) that how they were fed was put one bowl of dry food in the middle of the yard they reside in and let them go for it, so if they miss out they miss out. got these dogs home and they ate like as though it was their last meal. meanwhile mine get their own food bowl, and an area to eat their meal where no others can disturb them and take away their food. as dogs do if you don't supervise. these dogs got no supervision when eating so i can imagine the fights that would have happened dogs just being dogs, and also one was pregnant accidentally breeder said. was on heat and was just left to mate one of the other dogs. to me this is lacking in care and this was a prominent breeder.

another breeder gave me a dog once they heard that i do take in dogs, said i can come and pick him up, so i did and just before the breeder was going to give him away to someone undesexed. i just believe not desexing just encourages people to use them for breeding. but this breeder wasn't too concerned where he would have ended up just as long as he was gone. another one of her dogs turned up in rescue and they weren't interested that it did. me, i'd have a coronary. but thats just me.

so i do understand that not always just because a breeder says they are reg ANKC they are somehow a magical person doing all the right things.

[zenchel]

we keep saying this VCA/dogsvictoria members for years and years but you'd think with allthe membership fees that they collect if they were really serious they'd be doing the same thing and either hiring animal officers to investigate or doing as MDBA do and hiring a PI, they can afford it as they issue an annual profit report and its thousands of dollars profit. they do spend a lot of it on upgrades to the dog centres and what not but it is a big concern amongst our members and has been for years so instead of sending letters out to members asking questions about their escapades they'd get more active and serious. but nope, haven't heard a thing of what the puppyfarm committee is doing.

Can't let this go without responding, but am not going to get into an ongoing "I'm right, you're wrong" slanging match as continually happens on these forums, because frankly I haven't got the time or the inclination.

Toy Dog you are obviously from Victoria, despite what your details say, so I would like to invite you to join the Puppy Farm Working Party and also invite you to have a look at the financial report from Dogs Vic which is made available every year at the AGM. Thousands of dollars profit? I don't think so.

The continual cry of not allowing DV members to do this, that and the other thing is very admirable, however the practicalities of the legal issues surrounding this are always ignored. However, now that DV has taken the action of requiring photo id for membership renewals - it's like the sky is falling in - DV is accused of Nazi tactics - what right does DV have in requiring photo id? What about our privacy? And this is often from members that slap their photos all over their website, facebook etc so hopefully judges will recognise them.

The Puppy Farm Working Party prepared a detailed submission earlier in the year on legislative changes regarding Domestic Animal Businesses following meeting with representatives of the Bureau of Animal Welfare. We have also drawn up an in depth response to the proposed review of the Code of Practice relating to Breeding and Rearing Establishments which apparently will take place this year, however the Vic Govt have obviously got plenty on their plate over dog matters at the moment. Personally, I was called as a witness at the VCAT hearing over the application for a commercial breeding establishment in Ballan. I would strongly suggest you and anybody else that is interested read the decision from that hearing. It would give you a valuable insight into how the process of granting planning permits works.

Rant over.

Sylvia Power

Chair, Dogs Victoria Puppy Farm Working Party

[toy*dog]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

what i dont get is, alot of those videos of raids and what not, are in daytime so where is the owner? no owners in site just rows of dogs. did the owner go to sleep or something no staff there either. i dont' understand that bit. or maybe the owner went to town to do some shopping. and leave the dogs on their own to give birth. as you do i suppose NOT!!!!!!

[WreckitWhippet]

Just exaclty what is " doing the right thing " ?

It is having a council DA approval for your kennels, abiding by the Companion Animals ACT, POCTAA and the code of ethics for which ever associations you may belong ?

or is it, keeping your dogs how others " think " you should ? is it having less than the magical number drawn in the sand ? is it only breeding once a year ?

Someone needs to define what " doing the right thing is " so that I can make sure that I'm doing it and that myself and the dogs will be fine. Because raising them in the loungeroom isn't going to cut it with council or the RSPCA but it seem OK for the rest of those that judge us

[BJean]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

what i dont get is, alot of those videos of raids and what not, are in daytime so where is the owner? no owners in site just rows of dogs. did the owner go to sleep or something no staff there either. i dont' understand that bit. or maybe the owner went to town to do some shopping. and leave the dogs on their own to give birth. as you do i suppose NOT!!!!!!

It is not my business to judge people on their whereabouts the second I look for them.

Or how long they go shopping for.

Of if their dogs give birth on their own for the whole time or a period of time.

Lots of dogs give birth unattended.

[toy*dog]

Can't let this go without responding, but am not going to get into an ongoing "I'm right, you're wrong" slanging match as continually happens on these forums, because frankly I haven't got the time or the inclination.

Toy Dog you are obviously from Victoria, despite what your details say, so I would like to invite you to join the Puppy Farm Working Party and also invite you to have a look at the financial report from Dogs Vic which is made available every year at the AGM. Thousands of dollars profit? I don't think so.

The continual cry of not allowing DV members to do this, that and the other thing is very admirable, however the practicalities of the legal issues surrounding this are always ignored. However, now that DV has taken the action of requiring photo id for membership renewals - it's like the sky is falling in - DV is accused of Nazi tactics - what right does DV have in requiring photo id? What about our privacy? And this is often from members that slap their photos all over their website, facebook etc so hopefully judges will recognise them.

The Puppy Farm Working Party prepared a detailed submission earlier in the year on legislative changes regarding Domestic Animal Businesses following meeting with representatives of the Bureau of Animal Welfare. We have also drawn up an in depth response to the proposed review of the Code of Practice relating to Breeding and Rearing Establishments which apparently will take place this year, however the Vic Govt have obviously got plenty on their plate over dog matters at the moment. Personally, I was called as a witness at the VCAT hearing over the application for a commercial breeding establishment in Ballan. I would strongly suggest you and anybody else that is interested read the decision from that hearing. It would give you a valuable insight into how the process of granting planning permits works.

Rant over.

Sylvia Power

Chair, Dogs Victoria Puppy Farm Working Party

hi Sylvia i put my name down for the working party in the seminar and so did alot of other people so i was knocked back??? i got sent a letter like other people to inform me I was unsuccessful. i certainly would be interested in joining the committee. i know of alot of other people who would be too who are more experienced than i in such matters.

im not into im right your wrong tactics. i just read the annual reports but as i also say there are alot funds plowed back into our organisation to benefit the members like upgrading KCC park and small projects etc. etc. the reason i know about the letters being sent out to various members asking why so many litters yadda yadda yadda from DV is because many members have told us so at our own dog club. which is commendable and all that but wouldn't it be better if we did employ a person to investigate such matters?

i am only repeating what the masses are saying don't shoot the messenger.

i just didn't see all that the committee has done in any part of the gazette and i was wondering if you would be able to direct me to it, where it is so i can read it maybe i missed it. or if its not in there it might be a good idea do you not think? to perhaps inform the members of what is going on as i get alot of members talking amongst themselves and they are saying that DV are not doing a thing as it looks like that from our side of the fence.

i didn't mean to offend just going on what others are also saying and just repeating.

yes you can't please everyone can you, im in the line of work that deals with a large membership too and also alot of media cameras in your face stuff, there's always someone that is not happy. but i think that if it weeds out unscrupulous people joining our organisation why not have ID it takes a second to either send it in or show it.

many were also complaining of the companion animal club and those people using "our" facilities and i didn't really get why many members were up in arms about this, anything where we can educate pet people to learn about what we do as an organisation and they use our facilities, so what, is good. many got on their high horses about that one i just couldn't see it as a bad thing.

Edited September 21, 2011 by toy*dog

[toy*dog]

I'm really surprised that anyone 'ethical' (sic) supports a gang of unknown persons going through someone's home.

How could anyone support breaking into someone else's property unbeknown in the dark; the stuff of rapists and would-be assailants.

And the earnest avengers who copy the rapists and murderers in their skulking technique,

how stupid are you? You don't know the personal background of the person whose home you are raiding. Might be one day you choose the wrong target and find yourself or one of your friends faces blown off because your 'puppy farmer' swore they'd never relive the terror. I bet there are no raids in dubious neighborhoods hey.

what i dont get is, alot of those videos of raids and what not, are in daytime so where is the owner? no owners in site just rows of dogs. did the owner go to sleep or something no staff there either. i dont' understand that bit. or maybe the owner went to town to do some shopping. and leave the dogs on their own to give birth. as you do i suppose NOT!!!!!!

It is not my business to judge people on their whereabouts the second I look for them.

Or how long they go shopping for.

Of if their dogs give birth on their own for the whole time or a period of time.

Lots of dogs give birth unattended.

why that response so if one of your bitches starts whelping that would be the time that you duck out is it and leave her on her own? i know i don't leave them i am right there with them whether that is assisting or not depending on the circumstance. im not going to get into a bum fight with you about that. im just talking generally mate. as i said earlier alot of these farmers are not there with the bitch when they are whelping which in my experience is not good particularly with toy dogs as there are alot of things that can go wrong. maybe your breed has fewer problems but owning for almost 30 odd years several toy breeds i know only too well the problems in whelping and to think that some of them can run into problems and have not a human in sight when a pup gets stuck or they can't push out needing a C-S which is sometimes all too common in toys, then i can see the pain those little dogs would go through.

and YES i am not new to any of this, dogs can give birth unattended ofcourse they can we all know that, but also at a drop of hat things can go pear shaped very quickly. if you look on the net you will see several documents from vets stating what happened at these farms (mainly on prisoner for profit) and how the farm owner was not present during the night at the whelping the dog was whelping in the shed and either died or puppies died or something happened this is why the vet was writing the report. and also, several farms on their glossy websites have stated that they search every morning to see who's had puppies. like as though it is a livestock farm where you go out into the field to check on the sheep to see if they've given birth or not (family own a sheep station). with toy dogs it doesn't always work out easy like that, more often than not toy dogs do have complications they are not the easiest to whelp not unless you are lucky to have a free whelping line and boy is that hard to acquire, (!!!??)its taken me 20 years at least to accomplish that from several bloodlines i've been working with and im still not completely there yet as i keep introducing fresh lines that are not free whelping even though the breeder indicates it is.

however that wasn't my angle, my angle was how are these people getting into these properties. im not really judging i am just wondering what goes on.

the owners appear to never be there, in the videos they take anyway or even the pictures, just an observation not meaning to attack anyone here and to say who is right and who is wrong.

Edited September 21, 2011 by toy*dog

[mita]

I shouldn't have to point this out but to me it's obvious, why should a dog spend it's whole life being pregnant, feeding puppies and waiting for it's next season to be useful? And then agree that it's OK to get rid of them once their breeding is over, and I don't mean rehome. Yes, it's a breeder's prerogative to euthanase a dog that is past it's useful life (if that is the only value you place on a dog), ie breeding again and again but I'm sure that many people would just see that as totally callous behaviour.

My pet dogs all come from a registered breeder who believes that as soon as her girls have done their bit in the Show-ring & got their titles.....& have had one or two litters....they deserve to be in a good pet home for the rest of their days, if possible.

She doesn't have a lot of dogs, so all are known to her by name and personality.....& they have access to the house (as a girl's whelping approaches, that dog sleeps beside her bed, so she's ready to assist). She's part of a national & international network of breeders of her breed. Where health matters are taken seriously, with an International Working Party & tested dogs listed. She makes a conscious effort to continually socialise her dogs & puppies, with access to children and some doing pet therapy. She follows up with support, for life, any of her pups or dogs that've been placed in homes. And, because she knows their personalities so well, is able to make good matches.

No wonder, the dogs that I've got from her have been brilliantly socialised to be close companion dogs. And scientific research would back the worth and necessity of what she's doing in that respect. Interestingly, the word 'socialisation' is absent from most support of commercial puppy breeding.

Of course, she'd sell her puppies for money.... & they're worth it, in terms of the expert knowledge put into their breeding & raising. I doubt if she'd describe herself as a 'commercial' breeder, which implies making a living....and maybe supporting employees as well. And I doubt if commercial breeders could do what she does, given there'd have to be larger numbers of dogs & more emphasis on number of litters produced.

Which is why I support her 'hobby', 'breed-centred', approach as the source for any puppy or dog I'd get. And I'd like to see registered breeders like her, get the acknowledgement and consideration they've earned. The critical issue that needs to be looked into is supply of puppies and dogs, given that such an 'expert hobby model' does not produce puppies in great numbers. Like, is there any benefits in the model frequently used in the Scandanavian country from which one of my dogs originally came. Some of a registered breeder's dogs may be placed in 'hub' homes, from which they go on with their show career, but in which they benefit from the up -close care and socialisation.

Edited September 21, 2011 by mita

[toy*dog]

My pet dogs all come from a registered breeder who believes that as soon as her girls have done their bit in the Show-ring & got their titles.....& have had one or two litters....they deserve to be in a good pet home for the rest of their days, if possible.

we keep ours, i just can't bear to part with my bitches that has given me a good bloodline to go on with. we also are a very small volume breeder only preferring to breed to replace a very small show team for ourselves not for anyone else. every breeder is different, some find nice homes for the bitches after they've been desexed. we are able to do that keep our oldies as we have the dogs on two properties. the whole family own our dogs and share them.

[mita]

My pet dogs all come from a registered breeder who believes that as soon as her girls have done their bit in the Show-ring & got their titles.....& have had one or two litters....they deserve to be in a good pet home for the rest of their days, if possible.

we keep ours, i just can't bear to part with my bitches that has given me a good bloodline to go on with. we also are a very small volume breeder only preferring to breed to replace a very small show team for ourselves not for anyone else. every breeder is different, some find nice homes for the bitches after they've been desexed. we are able to do that keep our oldies as we have the dogs on two properties. the whole family own our dogs and share them.

I agree with you, toy dog. Another breeder of my breed of interest operates the same as you do, keeping her girls. She still has a couple of 'elderlies' from the breed she first started with. This lady gets top rating from me, just as the other lady does. It's how they regard their dogs, meet all their needs.....& give them a decent social life....that convinces me.

Interestingly, the breeder we've got our dogs from, always refers to them as 'my girls'. And I don't mind a bit! Because of the way she raised them, I regard her as the 'birth mother'! And I'm the very grateful 'adopting mother'.

In fact, another Brissie person who's also just adopted a girl from her.....with fabulous temperament & socialsation...has said that the breeder's wish is to see her girls together again one day. And we must arrange it.

[toy*dog]

My pet dogs all come from a registered breeder who believes that as soon as her girls have done their bit in the Show-ring & got their titles.....& have had one or two litters....they deserve to be in a good pet home for the rest of their days, if possible.

we keep ours, i just can't bear to part with my bitches that has given me a good bloodline to go on with. we also are a very small volume breeder only preferring to breed to replace a very small show team for ourselves not for anyone else. every breeder is different, some find nice homes for the bitches after they've been desexed. we are able to do that keep our oldies as we have the dogs on two properties. the whole family own our dogs and share them.

I agree with you, toy dog. Another breeder of my breed of interest operates the same as you do, keeping her girls. She still has a couple of 'elderlies' from the breed she first started with. This lady gets top rating from me, just as the other lady does. It's how they regard their dogs, meet all their needs.....& give them a decent social life....that convinces me.

Interestingly, the breeder we've got our dogs from, always refers to them as 'my girls'. And I don't mind a bit! Because of the way she raised them, I regard her as the 'birth mother'! And I'm the very grateful 'adopting mother'.

In fact, another Brissie person who's also just adopted a girl from her.....with fabulous temperament & socialsation...has said that the breeder's wish is to see her girls together again one day. And we must arrange it.

sounds wonderful you've even got me sold, i feel like going out and meeting your breeder too :D sounds like my kind of person.

we probably sound like nutters, but my parents are grandma and grand dad and im mother, so you'll get my dad saying "go and see your mother" pointing to me and when i drop them off (like kids) its so you've come to visit your grandma and granddad. oh boy. you can see my parents are itching actually to be grandparents of human kids but have to be satisfied with dogs because it aint gona be happening anytime soon with the 2 legged variety im afraid.