Interesting Read..

[toy*dog]

how about the element that *what if* a intense puppy farming facility was breeding dogs in clean conditions, they were breeding oodle dogs, and they had staff attending to the every need of the dogs, just shadowing what a pedigree breeders does all the same care.

so how do the animal rights people justify why they shouldnt' be there? if its all about care. when breeders knowing just a little bit more than the average joe, would be able to say, those dogs are not health tested there is not anyway we can tell what genetic problems lay in the immature puppy etc. etc. no pedigrees to research even knowing pedigrees its not an exact science i'd hate to be breeding blind without them though, but the animal rights people not knowing all that extra stuff to do with genetics what would be their argument then?

puppy farm dogs end up in shelters, they've thrown that argument out the window based on not enough statistics. so what about MDBA would they support someone like this, if they had a cross bred and bred with a cross bred and did all the same things as a pedigree breeder, would MDBA support a person like this?

[toy*dog]

MORE than 5000 people rallied at State Parliament yesterday to demand the end of puppy farms.

The Spring Street steps were full of people, placards and paws calling for the end of inhumane puppy farms, where dogs are bred in often filthy and cramped conditions.

Animal advocate Debra Tranter founded ''Oscar's Law'' named in honour of a dog she rescued twice from a puppy farm.

Advertisement: Story continues below

Ms Tranter said support for Oscar's Law was ''overwhelming'' and public awareness was the key to wiping out cruel breeding conditions. ''It will be the public who shut down puppy farms, not legislation,'' she said.

Ms Tranter said the state government had promised a review of the puppy farm code of practice, but without adequate resourcing and law enforcement, little would change to deter puppy farmers.

Ms Tranter said people needed to question where puppies came from.

Greens MP Sue Pennicuik said strong legislation and enforcement was needed to replace the existing code of practice. ''There are people breeding dogs who are in it for the money and are not interested in animal welfare who need to be stopped.''

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/its-a-putsch-for-pooches-as-thousands-of-protesters-lay-down-the-law-for-oscar-20110918-1kg3z.html#ixzz1YN1Nv8z9

they had it on the news last night and i see there was a person from bernese mountain dog club? talking about not buying pups from petshops. so that club was supporting it.

Edited September 19, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

how about the element that *what if* a intense puppy farming facility was breeding dogs in clean conditions, they were breeding oodle dogs, and they had staff attending to the every need of the dogs, just shadowing what a pedigree breeders does all the same care.

so how do the animal rights people justify why they shouldnt' be there? if its all about care. when breeders knowing just a little bit more than the average joe, would be able to say, those dogs are not health tested there is not anyway we can tell what genetic problems lay in the immature puppy etc. etc. no pedigrees to research even knowing pedigrees its not an exact science i'd hate to be breeding blind without them though, but the animal rights people not knowing all that extra stuff to do with genetics what would be their argument then?

puppy farm dogs end up in shelters, they've thrown that argument out the window based on not enough statistics. so what about MDBA would they support someone like this, if they had a cross bred and bred with a cross bred and did all the same things as a pedigree breeder, would MDBA support a person like this?

Toy Dog The MDBA only accepts purebred breeders and those working on purebreeds in development. Every breeder has to be able to register their puppies with a stud registry and supply registered pedigrees and no - it makes no difference how they are bred a cross bred breeder cannot be a breeder member of the MDBA. However, our position statement respects a persons right to breed dogs commercially as long as other things are not compromised on.

6. MDBA Position Statement on Commercial Breeders

Commercial Breeders sell dogs as a business through large kennels and pet stores. The MDBA is against the sale of dogs in pet shops but the myth that all pet store puppies come from puppy mills misdirects energy, attention and resources away from genuine puppy mills that need to be closed.

The activist tendency to paint the entire industry with the same brush has slowed animal welfare improvements by blurring the issues. The public and politicians can clearly see that not all commercial breeders are guilty of breeding dogs in filthy conditions with little regard for the dog’s health.

Because of the volume of puppies bred commercial breeders sometimes see their stud animals as stock. This means there is a higher risk that there is no post sale support or that they are not as motivated to be sure that the dog is suited to the buyer’s lifestyle as they could be.

The need to cover costs and make greater profits can create a potential which instigates a compromise on testing and husbandry issues.

The MDBA believes there is no shame in making money from breeding dogs as long as health, temperament and welfare issues are not compromised on in order for the breeder to attain their goal.

Commercial dog breeders who can fit MDBA criteria are welcomed as MDBA members

[toy*dog]

thank you

[Florise]

how about the element that *what if* a intense puppy farming facility was breeding dogs in clean conditions, they were breeding oodle dogs, and they had staff attending to the every need of the dogs, just shadowing what a pedigree breeders does all the same care.

and how would this be ensured? Daily/weekly/monthly inspections? and by whom?? Should large volume breeders be expected to open their establishment to outsiders? This is all just head banging pie in the sky stuff. Been discussed forever on this forum and never gets resolved.

[toy*dog]

how about the element that *what if* a intense puppy farming facility was breeding dogs in clean conditions, they were breeding oodle dogs, and they had staff attending to the every need of the dogs, just shadowing what a pedigree breeders does all the same care.

This is all just head banging pie in the sky stuff. Been discussed forever on this forum and never gets resolved.

and this exact same sentence has been said to death too, but i believe myself that i am getting something out of it, im learning about different view points thats why we have issues we discuss on this forum and it must be intersting as i saw at one stage 12 users on this subject?????? some have said to me in the past we are flogging a dead horse, its very much alive and well.

being a reg breeder and we are explaining our position of why we don't get out there and rally and rub shoulders (some of us not all of us ofcourse) with pet owners. we are all against the same thing but some of us have a different view point and are explaining why. we can't really resolve this, are we expected on here on this forum to resolve this issue? when its up to the public and the public seems to be getting more and more aware of all this.

and how would this be ensured? Daily/weekly/monthly inspections? and by whom?? Should large volume breeders be expected to open their establishment to outsiders?

i do believe when you are a domestic animal business having more than 10 fertile bitches by law council and DPI are required to inspect. how often and whether they do or not depends on the council region that you reside in. our area, council said they were inpsecting these premises regularly (puppy farm central area) and then when it was questioned through meetings it was found that was not the case at all as they didn't have the resources to do so. So on one hand the govt is passing all these laws and tightening laws but they want councils to administer it and councils can't because they haven't enough staff. in our area there is ONE animal officer to do 20 plus farms and thats it.

if you are reg with ANKC in Victoria and have 10 fertile bitches and under you are able to be exempt as advised by DogsVictoria themselves through email by the CEO which i have a copy off. DogsVictoria went in and made sure we got exempt but im off the opinion why would you want anymore than 10 fertile bitches (no mention of studs here) a breeder could quite possibly sustain a bloodline with that number i guess thats why they set it at 10.

and...just to add, i've had some come to me that are ANKC reg being harrassed by some councils and likened to a domestic animal business because it was unclear about ANKC breeders allowed 10 fertile bitches subject to getting a permit the normal way.

Edited September 19, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

I dont see it as pie in the sky stuff or that this forum is the place it can be or should be resolved either. I think being able to discuss things and see others points of view is good.

in Victoria if you are ANKC and have less than 10 fertile bitches you dont need a domestic animal business licence however if you want to breed you need a DA.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Well I got busy on the internet yesterday, looking up information about over breeding etc as Steve has stated that with the recent purchases of overbred bitches from puppy farms whose insides were wrecked that it could not possibly be from back to back breeding.

What was it then? A major coincidence? A strange virus? Hmmmm, I'd like a vet to post on here. I couldn't get some of the information downloaded from one vet's website but it did concur with the operating vet's opinion that their insides were wrecked by back to back breeding for many years.

For general readers who seek education - go and do Google searches yourselves.

I read a Breeders advice website that said it is looked upon a "UNETHICAL" - you should want to give your bitch a break. They say that "quality" breeders don't practice back to back breeding.

I shouldn't have to point this out but to me it's obvious, why should a dog spend it's whole life being pregnant, feeding puppies and waiting for it's next season to be useful? And then agree that it's OK to get rid of them once their breeding is over, and I don't mean rehome. Yes, it's a breeder's prerogative to euthanase a dog that is past it's useful life (if that is the only value you place on a dog), ie breeding again and again but I'm sure that many people would just see that as totally callous behaviour.

As for health issues caused by breeding back to back, check out this website:

JustAnswer http://www.justanswer.com/pet-dog/2d0sl-health-issues-related-breeding-dog.html#ixzz1YSayTkJu

I say again Steve, that you need to give other people some credit for having enough intelligence to work it out for themselves - especially frontline rescuers like myself.

Edited September 20, 2011 by dogmad

[Nic.B]

I find comments in the other thread about the Beagle female very disturbing. That is simply not quality of life for a companion animal, poor little soul.

In terms of meeting companion animal’s needs, I know how difficult that can be for say 50 dogs through volunteering at my local shelter.

It takes an excellent team of very hardworking staff to meet these animal’s needs. Feeding, coating, cleaning, medications, bathing, grooming, flea treatments .

Then there is exercise, stimulation and human company/affection/interaction. And these dogs are only there for 2 weeks max.

If there is a female/s in whelp, we are twice as busy. Feeding three or four times a day, supplements, ensuring she gets a break from bubs, cleaning bedding, ensuring they are a good temp, worming and god knows what else.

I also know the hard work needed to raise puppies as I had a litter of Border Collie rescues here and my god it was hard work! cost me an absolute fortune but to see the little ones and Mum head off to their new homes beautifully socialised, happy, robust and desexed was priceless.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a massive responsibility and commitment to meet companion animals needs. Many of these places have over 1000 dogs. IME it would be impossible to meet the needs of these animals, especially considering the length of time they live there.

It makes me feel really sick actually, a captive workforce with no voice. That shocking lady even openly admitted it was like jail (may be on another thread)

[Steve]

Well I got busy on the internet yesterday, looking up information about over breeding etc as Steve has stated that with the recent purchases of overbred bitches from puppy farms whose insides were wrecked that it could not possibly be from back to back breeding.

What was it then? A major coincidence? A strange virus? Hmmmm, I'd like a vet to post on here. I couldn't get some of the information downloaded from one vet's website but it did concur with the operating vet's opinion that their insides were wrecked by back to back breeding for many years.

For general readers who seek education - go and do Google searches yourselves.

I read a Breeders advice website that said it is looked upon a "UNETHICAL" - you should want to give your bitch a break. They say that "quality" breeders don't practice back to back breeding.

I shouldn't have to point this out but to me it's obvious, why should a dog spend it's whole life being pregnant, feeding puppies and waiting for it's next season to be useful? And then agree that it's OK to get rid of them once their breeding is over, and I don't mean rehome. Yes, it's a breeder's prerogative to euthanase a dog that is past it's useful life (if that is the only value you place on a dog), ie breeding again and again but I'm sure that many people would just see that as totally callous behaviour.

As for health issues caused by breeding back to back, check out this website:

JustAnswer http://www.justanswe...l#ixzz1YSayTkJu

I say again Steve, that you need to give other people some credit for having enough intelligence to work it out for themselves - especially frontline rescuers like myself.

So your link says - My concerns about a dog from this type of situation do not run so much to the "breeding use" side of things, but to a host of genetic and health problems found in puppy mill animals in general.

No one is suggesting breeding a bitch which is not in good condition but the reproductive cycle of the bitch is unique - there are no other mammals which have the same.

If a dog isnt mated she still secretes the same hormones she does as if she is pregnant and she is likely to have uterine problems and her insides "messy" if she has had phantom pregnancies rather than real pregnancies. Even if she doesnt show radical signs of phantom pregnancy as some do her body is going through a phantom every time she is in heat and doesnt get pregnant .The ethics you want to push have been developed based on feelings and convention and not science. Dogs - including registered dogs from registered breeders have back to back matings all the time as we can do on some heat seasons according to our codes of ethics and our bitches are in great nick before during and after they whelp. These puppy farm dogs may well be mal nourished and they well be in poor condition due to poor nutrition or vetting etc but to state categorically that it is bad for a bitches general health for her to have back to back breedings is not true.

Canine pregnancy protects against life threatening uterine diseases. The most common uterine disease in the bitch is cystic endometrial hyperplasia. It is linked to several serious uterine diseases including the potentially life threatening disease “pyometra” (literally – a uterus full of pus) which affects nearly one quarter of dogs under 10 years old which are not desexed . According to canine reproduction specialist Dr S. Romagnoli “bitches whelping regularly throughout their reproductive life almost never develop pyometra, while those who whelp rarely or never in their lives have a greater chance of developing this condition.

Its not politically correct to say so dogmad but bitches when given the chance do spend some time being pregnant, whelping and feeding puppies and waiting for their next season. Its what they are and how they have evolved.Humans have found other uses for them so we desex them but an entire bitch runs into problems internally if she has not been mated and its why many show dogs which are held back have reproductive problems.

I agree that many people see some of what they do as totally callous behaviour but many people think rescuing a dog which needs months of suffering to survive rather than putting it down is callous too. I think keeping puppies alive which have no front legs is pretty rotten too. Its not a nice thing to do but its not cruel and the breeder may decide it is more cruel to re home it - none of us get a say in that but not all of them do this anyway.

Dead is not suffering and Im interested in preventing dogs suffering . If dogs are suffering - as in being kept in flith and without food, shelter, exercise and vet treaments etc isnt that enough ? So why is there a need to sensationalise and exaggerate and bring in the emotional stuff ?

References for back to back breeding.

1. J.P. Verstegen III and K. Onclin. Prolactin and Anti-Prolactinic Agents in the Pathophysiology and Treatment of Mammary Tumors in the Dog. NAVC Proceedings 2006, North American Veterinary Conference (Eds).

2. Canine Pseudopregnancy: A Review (Last Updated: 23-Aug-2001)

C. Gobello1, P. W. Concannon2 and J. Verstegen III3, Recent Advances in Small Animal Reproduction, Concannon P.W., England G., Verstegen III J. and Linde-Forsberg C. (Eds.)

3. Donnay I, Rauis J & Verstegen J – Influence des antécédents hormonaux sur l’apparition clinique des tumeurs mammaires chez la chienne. Etude épidémiologique. Ann. Med. Vet. 1994, 138, 109-117

4. Simón Martí Angulo Clinical aspects of uterine disease in the bitch and queen. Proceeding of the Southern European Veterinary Conference

Oct. 2-4, 2009.

S. Romagnoli, How I Treat… Pyometra. Proceeding of the SEVC

Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 17-19, 2008 – Barcelona, Spain

5 Davidson AP, Feldman EC. Ovarian and estrous cycle abnormalities. In:

Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds) Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine.

WB Saunders, 2004

6 Johnson CA. Cystic endometrial hyperplasia, pyometra, and infertility. In:

Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds). Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine

WB Saunders, 1992, pp. 954.

[Steve]

I find comments in the other thread about the Beagle female very disturbing. That is simply not quality of life for a companion animal, poor little soul.

In terms of meeting companion animal's needs, I know how difficult that can be for say 50 dogs through volunteering at my local shelter.

It takes an excellent team of very hardworking staff to meet these animal's needs. Feeding, coating, cleaning, medications, bathing, grooming, flea treatments .

Then there is exercise, stimulation and human company/affection/interaction. And these dogs are only there for 2 weeks max.

If there is a female/s in whelp, we are twice as busy. Feeding three or four times a day, supplements, ensuring she gets a break from bubs, cleaning bedding, ensuring they are a good temp, worming and god knows what else.

I also know the hard work needed to raise puppies as I had a litter of Border Collie rescues here and my god it was hard work! cost me an absolute fortune but to see the little ones and Mum head off to their new homes beautifully socialised, happy, robust and desexed was priceless.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a massive responsibility and commitment to meet companion animals needs. Many of these places have over 1000 dogs. IME it would be impossible to meet the needs of these animals, especially considering the length of time they live there.

It makes me feel really sick actually, a captive workforce with no voice. That shocking lady even openly admitted it was like jail (may be on another thread)

Management of dogs in shelters which are only there for 2 weeks is different to management of breeding dogs and many of the big commercial kennels have staff and systems which cover it all.

A captive work force with no voice ?????? It was like jail just as its just like jail in a boarding kennel or rescue kennel and that is part of what breeders have been yelling about for years. Mandatory codes influenced by animal rights and animal welfare have given breeders no choice. Thats how they want me to keep my dogs!!!!!!! and if we dont we are in breach of the codes . in 3 states we get no choice on when we can vaccinate our dogs !!!!!!

When they approve DA's that's what they approve. None of this can be dealt with in one dimension.

[Steve]

I say again Steve, that you need to give other people some credit for having enough intelligence to work it out for themselves - especially frontline rescuers like myself.

If I didnt think other people had enough intellegence to work it out for themselves - especially front line rescuers like you I wouldnt be here knocking myself out, putting up with abusive calls and emails and PM's.

Im hoping that people can work out that the methodology being used is counterproductive, has un intended consequences and that they do look into it all and make their own decisions rather than simply accept what anyone is telling them - including me.

[toy*dog]

I read a Breeders advice website that said it is looked upon a "UNETHICAL" - you should want to give your bitch a break. They say that "quality" breeders don't practice back to back breeding

in our own code of ethics it states member shall not cause the bitch to whelp more than twice within any 18 month period.

so even the state controlling bodies do not support it although, they will let you register a back to back once but i'd never consider doing it over and over again like these farmers do. watching my bitches go through all that and for me too the stress involved, the involved care. yes nic b it takes a lot to raise a happy healthy litter of puppies. it also takes a fair bit of money especially if it doesn't all go according to plan! i always make sure i have plenty of money in the bank when i plan to breed my littlies.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a massive responsibility and commitment to meet companion animals needs. Many of these places have over 1000 dogs. IME it would be impossible to meet the needs of these animals, especially considering the length of time they live there.

this is my point too. yes steve they have staff but one farm i know off has over 700 dogs and no code addresses the issue that it takes alot to care for 10 dogs all their social needs (i should know been doing it for years and years) and to give each dog individual attention. so these farms have 5 staff for 700 dogs? they should be employing 70 people to look after 700 dogs. plus they make no secret about how they look after their dogs there are vet reports on the net of what happens. farmer wakes up at 6am to bitches giving birth 9 times out of 10 its always happened with us, bitches will start during the night. so these dogs are on their own giving birth so what happens if there is a complication, pup side ways presentation stuck in birth canal? meanwhile the farmer is sleeping, tends to the dogs out in paddocks like sheep wakes up and searches for who is still alive and who isn't. the mortality rate was enormous in one farm. out of 2000 pups born in one period alone only half of them survived and sometimes bitch would die with the pups. deplorable.

dogs are not livestock but these farmers sure do treat them like that. evidence is there in black and white.

[sandgrubber]

For general readers who seek education - go and do Google searches yourselves.

In doing so, please weigh opinion by the bias and qualifications of the source. Some topics, such as vaccination of children, draw a lot of extremists who are repeating a bunch of garbage, over and over. They continue to cite articles that have been shown to be fraudulent and have retracted by the journal that published them.

It's sad that access to thoroughly researched papers is often expensive, and people whose opinion isn't worth a damn is all over the place.

[toy*dog]

I say again Steve, that you need to give other people some credit for having enough intelligence to work it out for themselves - especially frontline rescuers like myself.

If I didnt think other people had enough intellegence to work it out for themselves - especially front line rescuers like you I wouldnt be here knocking myself out, putting up with abusive calls and emails and PM's.

this is the problem i have sometimes with this forum. are they abusing you because of what you say on here? at least you are being honest with what you think and giving your opinion. not everyone agrees with each other, we all have different opinions. if we had the same line of thinking this would be a boring place on this forum. this is what i do with breeders when i write my little articles designed to get people thinking, i realised that every breeder had different thoughts based on what experiences they've had.

if these people are saying things behind the scenes, instead of hiding why don't we all come clean and let everyone know what their problem is, so we can discuss it ???????

you see this is not all pie in the sky stuff and flogging a dead horse is it, far from it.

[toy*dog]

For general readers who seek education - go and do Google searches yourselves.

In doing so, please weigh opinion by the bias and qualifications of the source. Some topics, such as vaccination of children, draw a lot of extremists who are repeating a bunch of garbage, over and over. They continue to cite articles that have been shown to be fraudulent and have retracted by the journal that published them.

It's sad that access to thoroughly researched papers is often expensive, and people whose opinion isn't worth a damn is all over the place.

i don't think that i need to google i can draw on what i know after almost 30 years. although i do google particular topics like veterinary notes if i need resources and discuss it with my vet and get second opinions fully research and by doing this i've found out alot over the years, also read alot of books but mainly draw on my learning experiences from breeding dogs and what i've come up against.

[Nic.B]

I accept that there are differences, though I don’t believe they are that far apart.

How many experienced staff do large commercial kennels have to care for 1000 dogs? And they need to be great staff who are committed to the welfare of the animals in their care. How on earth would you be able to socialise and exercise all 1000 dogs daily? They need feeding, puppies and mothers three times a day, that takes forever alone with 1000 dogs.

Dogs also need treatments and their individual needs met through breed type, age, condition etc. I personally find it impossible to comprehend responsibly meeting 1000 dogs needs daily, just though my own experiences.

A captive workforce is also used to describe disadvantaged groups of people who are forced to work or do something without a choice. (eg people with disabilities) I have experienced this as well and it is very sad. People forced to work, free of charge for a service to profit.

Steve you have said that you use private detectives to check out breeders you are concerned about which is great.

I do not mean to offend though how is that any different to what Debra Tranter is doing? Perhaps welfare orgs are best paying a private detective if they share the same concerns? Would that be more acceptable?

I agree it is a messy and contentious issue and there are a broad range of issues to address. I hope and pray one day soon there will be some huge leaps forward for companion animals.

[toy*dog]

I accept that there are differences, though I don’t believe they are that far apart.

How many experienced staff do large commercial kennels have to care for 1000 dogs? And they need to be great staff who are committed to the welfare of the animals in their care. How on earth would you be able to socialise and exercise all 1000 dogs daily? They need feeding, puppies and mothers three times a day, that takes forever alone with 1000 dogs.

there's one farm who quite clearly on their glossy website advertises the fact that they have 5 or 6 people looking after their dogs full time staff. over 700 dogs. not near enough people IMO. they pride themselves on this fact, and they also pride themselves on being the best and largest in Vic.

it takes forever with just 10 dogs. i can't imagine the committment it would take for 1000 it would drive me insane i'd go insane because each dog has to be played with, have their training one on one with me and could you imagine what i'd be like with 1000 i'd never get a rest i'd have to work through the night to tend to them. its obvious that these dogs in farms their needs are not being met at all aside from all the other issues we have already gone into here.

its not right. poor poor dogs. being an animal lover i get so upset.

[Steve]

I accept that there are differences, though I don't believe they are that far apart.

How many experienced staff do large commercial kennels have to care for 1000 dogs? And they need to be great staff who are committed to the welfare of the animals in their care. How on earth would you be able to socialise and exercise all 1000 dogs daily? They need feeding, puppies and mothers three times a day, that takes forever alone with 1000 dogs.

Dogs also need treatments and their individual needs met through breed type, age, condition etc. I personally find it impossible to comprehend responsibly meeting 1000 dogs needs daily, just though my own experiences.

A captive workforce is also used to describe disadvantaged groups of people who are forced to work or do something without a choice. (eg people with disabilities) I have experienced this as well and it is very sad. People forced to work, free of charge for a service to profit.

Steve you have said that you use private detectives to check out breeders you are concerned about which is great.

I do not mean to offend though how is that any different to what Debra Tranter is doing? Perhaps welfare orgs are best paying a private detective if they share the same concerns? Would that be more acceptable?

I agree it is a messy and contentious issue and there are a broad range of issues to address. I hope and pray one day soon there will be some huge leaps forward for companion animals.

I dont have a clue how anyone can or does look after 1000 dogs but Im not prepared to make judgements on whether they are or are not cruel to their animals based on emotional argument which is not conducive to science or on another case which has been sensationalised. If dogs are suffering there is a system in place for the places to be inspected and action taken, council, police, and RSPCA are charged with this - there is no need to go in under cover of darkness because the same dogs and the same conditions are there in daylight and when you come through the front gate.

Of course what we do is different to what Debra Tranter does. Firstly nothing we do is illegal and the breeder gets a fair chance to defend themselves.

They already have given us permission to investigate any compliants against them and they are advised when these complaints are lodged.

So far we havent received a complaint against any of our members that they keep their animals in poor conditions but if we do Ill be there with two others personally and I wont need a private investigator or to break in at night to do so. I'll knock on the front door and ask to take a look.

Our use of a PI so far has been when our members have been accused of fraud and not providing necessary infomation etc as we didnt have the skills and resources required to do it ourselves but the breeders knew we were investigating it and so far have been cleared.

[toy*dog]

If dogs are suffering there is a system in place for the places to be inspected and action taken, council, police, and RSPCA are charged with this - there is no need to go in under cover of darkness because the same dogs and the same conditions are there in daylight and when you come through the front gate.

it is justified doing it through raids and other means because they (animal rights people and others) say that police, RSPCA and council refuse to act? and also the police were actually operating puppy farms themselves. many people on here have said that RSPCA are weak and sometimes don't even act when it is infront of their face that there is a cruelty case going on. i haven't had that problem myself they've acted fairly quickly in my experience. so this is their reasoning? they also go on to say the laws have failed these dogs, they can only act when the dogs are near to death. RSPCA/animal rights people. so they intervene to save the dogs and one video they had up, don't know if its still there but they went to take a look at the dogs and one puppy was lying still on the ground so Debra and her friend picked up the pup it was fitting i think clearly a sick little baby. they took it in the car and tried to rush it to the vets. it ended up dying. but it was in the farm in a pen on its own and no owner or anyone was in sight.