Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[Red Fox]

MRB - you know you can have your dog on a check chain or prong collar and also use treats? Also do LAT? The check chain and pinch collar are only pieces of equipment.

Yep. I have worked my dog many times on the prong collar whilst also using a clicker and treats. It's there as an added means of control if needed - not so I can slam my dog if he gets it wrong.

MRB:

But again, killer whales are usually not trained with punishment/adversives.

Killer whales are not dogs, the expectations are different. They perform in a tank under controlled circumstances. I don't see too many in peoples backyards, or being taken for a stroll down the street..

Yet society demands that ALL dogs should behave reliably in public, around children, other dogs and the elderly - regardless of training or temperament.

If you have a large reactive dog first you manage it, then you can play around with roast chicken.

[Aidan3]

MRB:

But again, killer whales are usually not trained with punishment/adversives.

Killer whales are not dogs, the expectations are different. They perform in a tank under controlled circumstances. I don't see too many in peoples backyards, or being taken for a stroll down the street..

I'm very careful with the analogy, it becomes a bit of a straw-man argument. The demands for both animals are different, but I would not say that pet dogs have more demands than trained marine mammals. They are just different demands, and different animals.

I can tell you that the US Navy has taken wild caught dolphins, trained them in the open ocean using only reward contingencies, and had them operational on long and relatively complex missions inside of 3 months. The animals are free to hunt on these expeditions but this does not affect task performance.

I don't want to set up an unnecessary comparison between dolphins and dogs, or professional dolphin trainers and pet dog owners; but I think we can all improve on our abilities to use +R to train dogs.

[Staranais]

I can't understand why so many people in here advocate the use of correction collars. If you want to use them, fair enough, your choice. But why try to convince everyone to use them? It's like people who use correction collars can't handle that some people manage to train their dogs without them.

Can I please ask who, specifically, are you accusing of trying to convince everyone to use correction collars?

If it's the OP, I think you'll find the original thread was from someone who wanted to be allowed to use a correction collar on his own dog at a dog club. It was not about someone trying to persuade other members of the club to start using them.

[Staranais]

I can tell you that the US Navy has taken wild caught dolphins, trained them in the open ocean using only reward contingencies, and had them operational on long and relatively complex missions inside of 3 months. The animals are free to hunt on these expeditions but this does not affect task performance.

I have heard of this before, and it makes me wonder, how carefully do they select these dolphins for the program, and what % of the selected dolphins end up being successfully trained?

I am only pondering this as I wonder if perhaps the situation is more analogous to pet dogs that we would suppose. In both cases, perhaps a carefully selected group of animals certainly can be reliably trained to do exceptional things, in a reasonable time frame, using reward alone. But, can they all be?

Slightly off topic, sorry.

[Aidan3]

I can tell you that the US Navy has taken wild caught dolphins, trained them in the open ocean using only reward contingencies, and had them operational on long and relatively complex missions inside of 3 months. The animals are free to hunt on these expeditions but this does not affect task performance.

I have heard of this before, and it makes me wonder, how carefully do they select these dolphins for the program, and what % of the selected dolphins end up being successfully trained?

It's a great question, and in the absence of published behavioural tests I can't really answer. Thinking about this from a practical perspective there would have to be a cut-off, but they wouldn't do it if they ended up washing out a high percentage of dolphins (too expensive).

Mind you, I think most of the problems are on the trainer side rather than the dog side and the trainer side is the side we can improve most readily. Breeding better dogs seems to be a bit of a lost cause when it comes to behaviour (responsible breeders the likes of which we see here are in the minority).

[corvus]

fuzzy - often people use a prong in conjunction with positive rewards. The prong isn't there for corrections - it is there for control. You can't control all your dogs triggers all of the time - someone could come running toward you etc and you need to ensure the public's safety. If you have a large, powerful dog they can come in handy.

That's why a lot of people are using head collars in conjunction with reward-based behaviour modification. Maybe not so many people here, but I know behaviourists in Australia that recommend them and it is also recommended in the literature by practising vet behaviourists. They are considered a superior tool for control because you can control the head. Before everyone jumps on me about dogs lunging on head collars, it is usually a setup involving two leashes or a double-ended leash. Linda Tellington-Jones has a method of walking up the leash to the head when a dog is teetering on the edge of reacting.

No one is saying that a dog should be punished for being fearful.

But if the dog is wearing a tool that delivers punishments automatically, don't you run the risk of that happening by accident? Control and punishment are not mutually exclusive any more that punishment and reward is. When a dog is in a fearful state they become very sensitive to negative stimuli. It's adaptive, so they can learn quickly the things they need to avoid in the future.

Prongs are, as far as I can tell, quite a nicely designed tool for precision feedback, but personally, I'd rather have absolute control of both rewards and punishers if I can.

[corvus]

Breeding better dogs seems to be a bit of a lost cause when it comes to behaviour (responsible breeders the likes of which we see here are in the minority).

Plus, even responsible breeders can breed the odd aberration. I don't think they need feel ashamed about that. Genetics and behaviour are both complicated and there are big unknowns about heritability of behavioural tendencies. They do their best, but they are only human. Problems will crop up from time to time.

[Aidan3]

Breeding better dogs seems to be a bit of a lost cause when it comes to behaviour (responsible breeders the likes of which we see here are in the minority).

Plus, even responsible breeders can breed the odd aberration. I don't think they need feel ashamed about that. Genetics and behaviour are both complicated and there are big unknowns about heritability of behavioural tendencies. They do their best, but they are only human. Problems will crop up from time to time.

Haha, yes I had some concerns about making that comment. I'm referring to the entire population, of course. Some breed clubs and breeders are doing a very good job of breeding dogs fit for a purpose and finding them homes that suit them. We're going to get roughly 5% of dogs falling well outside the target range even with the best practices.

[Bull Arab]

I have to say this is the best "well balanced" discussion I have seen on DOL in a long time. Good to see both sides of the fence agreeing to put forward a good logical explanation and posting their thoughts at the same time. One can learn a lot form reading stuff like this. I might not agree, might not use some of the stuff on here but on the other hand I might just pick up a tip or two I can use, or even worse (just kidding) an understanding of a different type of training. Thanks all and keep it up

Click and treat for all of you

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

If you have a large reactive dog first you manage it, then you can play around with roast chicken.

I agree with this. But I don't have a large reactive dog.

I don't need the power or control of a prong either, I find I get enough control with the front attach harness - it works for me and my dog, tho I know that it doesn't work for some dogs.

Best result with front attach harness that I know about was someone who couldn't take her rottweiler for a walk at all because it pulled her over, to her being able to hold the dog easily enough to roll cigarettes. Not that I think smoking is a good idea, but rolling cigarettes would be hard to do with strongly pulling or lunging dog.

[Erny]

fuzzy - often people use a prong in conjunction with positive rewards. The prong isn't there for corrections - it is there for control. You can't control all your dogs triggers all of the time - someone could come running toward you etc and you need to ensure the public's safety. If you have a large, powerful dog they can come in handy.

That's why a lot of people are using head collars in conjunction with reward-based behaviour modification. Maybe not so many people here, but I know behaviourists in Australia that recommend them and it is also recommended in the literature by practising vet behaviourists. They are considered a superior tool for control because you can control the head. Before everyone jumps on me about dogs lunging on head collars, it is usually a setup involving two leashes or a double-ended leash. Linda Tellington-Jones has a method of walking up the leash to the head when a dog is teetering on the edge of reacting.

No one is saying that a dog should be punished for being fearful.

But if the dog is wearing a tool that delivers punishments automatically, don't you run the risk of that happening by accident? Control and punishment are not mutually exclusive any more that punishment and reward is. When a dog is in a fearful state they become very sensitive to negative stimuli. It's adaptive, so they can learn quickly the things they need to avoid in the future.

Prongs are, as far as I can tell, quite a nicely designed tool for precision feedback, but personally, I'd rather have absolute control of both rewards and punishers if I can.

Corvus - I'm unclear at what you are suggesting here so need to check. Are you saying that head-collars don't deliver a punishment where PPCollars do, in the circumstances mentioned here?

[davidthedogman]

Have you good folks heard of the foundation method, to train a dog to heal? No words spoken and it takes no more that 10 minutes to get a reliable heal.

[Kavik]

I'll go out on a limb and guess Koehler?

The way I plan to train a competition heel with the next dog I attempt competition obedience with is going to take a lot longer than 10 minutes , but I want happy enthusiastic focus and good body awareness.

[krustie22]

fuzzy - often people use a prong in conjunction with positive rewards. The prong isn't there for corrections - it is there for control. You can't control all your dogs triggers all of the time - someone could come running toward you etc and you need to ensure the public's safety. If you have a large, powerful dog they can come in handy.

That's why a lot of people are using head collars in conjunction with reward-based behaviour modification. Maybe not so many people here, but I know behaviourists in Australia that recommend them and it is also recommended in the literature by practising vet behaviourists. They are considered a superior tool for control because you can control the head. Before everyone jumps on me about dogs lunging on head collars, it is usually a setup involving two leashes or a double-ended leash. Linda Tellington-Jones has a method of walking up the leash to the head when a dog is teetering on the edge of reacting.

No one is saying that a dog should be punished for being fearful.

But if the dog is wearing a tool that delivers punishments automatically, don't you run the risk of that happening by accident? Control and punishment are not mutually exclusive any more that punishment and reward is. When a dog is in a fearful state they become very sensitive to negative stimuli. It's adaptive, so they can learn quickly the things they need to avoid in the future.

Prongs are, as far as I can tell, quite a nicely designed tool for precision feedback, but personally, I'd rather have absolute control of both rewards and punishers if I can.

Corvus - I'm unclear at what you are suggesting here so need to check. Are you saying that head-collars don't deliver a punishment where PPCollars do, in the circumstances mentioned here?

im of the understanding that head collars (properly used) redirect the dogs attention, there is no pinching, not choking (like with a check chain), the dogs head is gently re-positioned away from the distraction , whereas a prong collar is pain stimulus (creates discomfort and the dog goes back to where it didn't feel discomfort). i could be wrong...that is just my understanding.

[Kavik]

krustie

Many dogs find the headcollar aversive just sitting on their face loose (many try to scratch it off), certainly it creates discomfort when it is tightened, otherwise it wouldn't work ;) just like any other control tool so they go back to the position where it is more comfortable. There is also the possibility of the head being turned to the side when they pull, especially if they lunge.

[corvus]

Corvus - I'm unclear at what you are suggesting here so need to check. Are you saying that head-collars don't deliver a punishment where PPCollars do, in the circumstances mentioned here?

No. I was not making a comparison of the aversiveness of the tools. I was noting why head collars are preferred by many professionals.

[Yesmaam]

Contact either Gold Coast Sportdog Club or Brisbane Sporting Dog Club. You'll probably find that they are much more open minded.

Dont forget

metro dogsport club

They are located in Pinkenba

Edited September 15, 2011 by Yesmaam

[corvus]

krustie

Many dogs find the headcollar aversive just sitting on their face loose (many try to scratch it off)

Well, I think that falls under the heading of "improper use". If I can get a dog that hates his head being restrained to come running for his eye drops every 3 hours, I think most dogs can be taught to like a head collar.

certainly it creates discomfort when it is tightened, otherwise it wouldn't work ;) just like any other control tool so they go back to the position where it is more comfortable.

Really? I can think of a way a head collar might work without discomfort strong enough to change behaviour. I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that they work because they create discomfort. Not saying that doesn't ever factor into it.

Edited September 15, 2011 by corvus

[Staff'n'Toller]

krustie

Many dogs find the headcollar aversive just sitting on their face loose (many try to scratch it off)

Well, I think that falls under the heading of "improper use". If I can get a dog that hates his head being restrained to come running for his eye drops every 3 hours, I think most dogs can be taught to like a head collar.

That's not really a valid comparison. Having your muzzle held for a minute or less to apply eye drops is different to a dog having to wear a head collar for a prolonged period of time.

I can go on but this is OT...

[Kavik]

krustie

Many dogs find the headcollar aversive just sitting on their face loose (many try to scratch it off)

Well, I think that falls under the heading of "improper use". If I can get a dog that hates his head being restrained to come running for his eye drops every 3 hours, I think most dogs can be taught to like a head collar.

certainly it creates discomfort when it is tightened, otherwise it wouldn't work ;) just like any other control tool so they go back to the position where it is more comfortable.

Really? I can think of a way a head collar might work without discomfort strong enough to change behaviour. I don't think it's a forgone conclusion that they work because they create discomfort. Not saying that doesn't ever factor into it.

Loop tightens around muzzle when lead pulled, closing dog's mouth and pulling their head. I would think that would be uncomfortable, don't you?