Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[megan_]

Why the mention of hitting the dog? I don't know anyone - even the most pro-punishment person - who advocates this.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Because "hitting a dog" is a really clear example of what "positive punishment" is. Sure there are increments of severity but you are basically trying to make the dog sufficiently uncomfortable doing something it likes - to stop it. And usually going this path will result in escalating the severity to get the same result.

Especially if the trainer is the tiniest bit inconsistent.

[huski]

MRB what possible way could hitting a dog be "well delivered"? Hitting a dog is abuse plain and simple, not a training method and it perplexed me how you could use it as an example of one.

[Staranais]

Why the mention of hitting the dog? I don't know anyone - even the most pro-punishment person - who advocates this.

Because it's much easier to argue against hitting a dog than to argue against more reasonable examples of positive punishment.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

MRB what possible way could hitting a dog be "well delivered"?

I never said it could. I'm sure there are some trainers who can or think they can. At least I know I can't. And I'm not any better with any of the more "reasonable examples" apart from non reward markers eg saying "oops" to a dog in a neutral tone. And even then I say "oops" when I stuff up, not just when the dog does something I don't want to reward. Oops.

[Kavik]

MRB I don't know of any training method that advocates hitting the dog, that is abuse not training.

[davidthedogman]

They did not say they wanted to trial the dog in Schutzhund or do protection? They have the dog they do, and are trying to improve its behaviour, you shouldn't go telling everyone they should reject their dog if they are having problems with it, which is how your posts come across. A Schutzhund club is more likely to be able to help them with reactive behaviour, and would have a good understanding of Malinois behaviour and drives. And you shouldn't automatically discount any tool which cannot be used in a trial situation - they can be very useful in helping to get a difficult dog under control.

You can't have any type of collar on your dog in some agility trials ;)

No, I tell you the same as I telling mr Jeff is the Schutzhund club is not behavior clinic and is not automatic the place to go to use the prong becuase many the Schutzhund club will be wanting no prongs on the pup also same as the obedience club the poster talk about. Dont be thinking becuase is common to see prongs on the working dogs the Schutzhund clubs all use prongs, they dont is my point here.

The poster say he has protection trained Malinois and do the KNPV already so why he at obedience club for the pets to argue the prong rules is making no sense to me?

Joe

As previously stated, this dog has had no socialization at all. I need to dis sensitize her.so we can move forward. I have now had a couple of emails back and forth from the ANKC. I will publish these in due course. But it seems to me the objection, is the advantage one would gain from using anything other than a check chain.

[bedazzledx2]

We were all very bemused by this and it was only later that someone said he was checking for prong collars!!!

At the last rules review WA suggested that the only collars allowed in the obedience ring should be flat or martingale collars...you can guess how that went down Needless to say, we were outvoted by the bigger states ;)

Would it just not be easier to have people remove leads and collars at the start peg - after all we can run our agility dogs without a lead or collar on so why not obedience - has never made sense to me. Maybe leave them on for stays in case a steward has to grab a strange dog but I don't see any reason why they need to have a collar on in an obedience trial.

[Staranais]

The flat collars only rule makes sense to me, Bedazzled - why didn't people like it? You can't correct in the obedience ring anyway, can you, so what's the point of wearing a correction chain in there (unless you want it to remind the dog that it could be corrected, which is surely no more fair than me being allowed to carry my tug in the ring to remind my dog she can be rewarded?)

[Seita]

Alternatively I guess you could always hide the prong with a bandana or one of those prong covers so it's not obvious...

Isn't that quite dishonest? It would never get through at the club I go to. They vet every dog before training starts to make sure your equipment is on right and the dog appears healthy.

I didn't say that I would do it

We've had a couple of eastern states judges come over to judge our Western Classic event who, at the start post, ran their hands around the dog's collar. I had no idea then why and thought it a bit strange... ;)

Alternatively I guess you could always hide the prong with a bandana or one of those prong covers so it's not obvious...

Isn't that quite dishonest? It would never get through at the club I go to. They vet every dog before training starts to make sure your equipment is on right and the dog appears healthy.

Fascinating... never had a judge do that in QLD and I've only encountered one person at a trial in QLD who had a prong on and she didn't know it wasn't allowed and removed it the moment I mentioned it to her. I won't let a judge touch my dog before a trial, it would send Ella haywire!

[davidthedogman]

Everyone I have to give you all a huge pat on the back, for the way you have all handled this discussion, no bickering or name calling just awesome post's THANKYOU

[megan_]

MRB what possible way could hitting a dog be "well delivered"?

I never said it could. I'm sure there are some trainers who can or think they can. At least I know I can't. And I'm not any better with any of the more "reasonable examples" apart from non reward markers eg saying "oops" to a dog in a neutral tone. And even then I say "oops" when I stuff up, not just when the dog does something I don't want to reward. Oops.

But you're talking about obedience - which is just trick training. Most people only use rewards for tricks. The op was talking about behavior modification. You cant really say oops when you have a powerful dog that is trying to kill something

[Staranais]

I often use reward-only for behaviour modification. I think it's hugely powerful tool. It's just not the only good tool out there.

[bedazzledx2]

Don't know, it was moved on WA's behalf by our delegate....it was the ANKC rules review and we were of the same opinion as you...why have it on at all? It got outvoted by the other delegates, actually I don't think any other state supported the motion

The flat collars only rule makes sense to me, Bedazzled - why didn't people like it? You can't correct in the obedience ring anyway, can you, so what's the point of wearing a correction chain in there (unless you want it to remind the dog that it could be corrected, which is surely no more fair than me being allowed to carry my tug in the ring to remind my dog she can be rewarded?)

[krustie22]

The flat collars only rule makes sense to me, Bedazzled - why didn't people like it? You can't correct in the obedience ring anyway, can you, so what's the point of wearing a correction chain in there (unless you want it to remind the dog that it could be corrected, which is surely no more fair than me being allowed to carry my tug in the ring to remind my dog she can be rewarded?)

Yup...i agree with this! it is also why i think i will stick to agility and not do obedience trialling. at least in agility you are free to reward (verbally) your dog till your hearts content!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Some of the instructors at my dog club like the choke chains because it's much harder for a dog to escape from. Ie they can't pull backwards and slip the thing over their head and escape.

When my dog goes bunta at something - I only use treats to change the behaviour. There is a serious risk that any method that causes the dog discomfort will have the dog associate the discomfort with the object of its aggression.

eg my dog and horses (or possums or cats or seagulls or dolphins...)

If I "corrected" her for barking at the horse, I'm pretty sure she'd connect horses with bad things and maybe angry/frustrated boss. So I use roast chicken or metwurst or fritz or fresh cooked sausage ie the best treats, and I go sufficient distance she can start to think again, and reward any attention on me instead of the horse. She can now look at a horse, from a reasonable distance (haven't found a willing decoy for closer work recently), and stay calm and well behaved. Hasn't always been this way.

Don't get me wrong - I think prong collars have their place and have worked "miracles" on some fear aggressive dogs I've seen. It starts by training the dog how to "escape" the pressure with no distractions and then builds from distant distractions and short exposures to closer and longer exposures to the stressor. But I didn't see the same dog worked with roast chicken instead.

And I aslo acknowledge there are scary dogs, that have the potential to be retrained to more appropriate behaviour and it might take adversives to get their attention. But again, killer whales are usually not trained with punishment/adversives.

[Kavik]

MRB - you know you can have your dog on a check chain or prong collar and also use treats? Also do LAT? The check chain and pinch collar are only pieces of equipment.

[fuzzy82]

MRB - you know you can have your dog on a check chain or prong collar and also use treats? Also do LAT? The check chain and pinch collar are only pieces of equipment.

But unless you have a dog that will slip out of a collar, or you are planning on giving the dog corrections, then there is no point putting it in a choke or prong collar. I know how to use them correctly, I can see how they are useful training tools in some cases and when used correctly, but I would never put either on my dogs. And I'm not gonna put one on my dogs just for the sake of putting one on my dogs to prove that I can still give them treats while they're wearing a correction collar.

One of my dogs is fear aggressive, or used to be, and I have used nothing but treats and distance to fix. Now he's a normal dog 95% of the time. I can't see why you'd use any other method to fix fear aggression or reactivity, so the only reason you'd put a correction collar on that type of dog is if it's very big and you need to be able to control it if it does react.

I can't understand why so many people in here advocate the use of correction collars. If you want to use them, fair enough, your choice. But why try to convince everyone to use them? It's like people who use correction collars can't handle that some people manage to train their dogs without them.

[megan_]

fuzzy - often people use a prong in conjunction with positive rewards. The prong isn't there for corrections - it is there for control. You can't control all your dogs triggers all of the time - someone could come running toward you etc and you need to ensure the public's safety. If you have a large, powerful dog they can come in handy.

All of that said, I don't use corrections on my dog, but I'm not going to judge someone (like ~Shell~) who uses them properly in conjunction with a rehab program.

I don't see anyone advocating correction collars either?

No one is saying that a dog should be punished for being fearful.

Edited September 14, 2011 by megan_

[Kavik]

Nobody said to use one to fix fear aggression and if you read my posts on the matter I have used treats and a clicker on my fear aggressive dog.

However when I walk dogs whose combined weight is equal to or greater than my own, or walking with my kids or the pram, I like to know that I can have control if the unexpected happens, if they lunge unexpectedly, we encounter another dog coming around a corner suddenly etc. What collar that is is dependent on the dog.

I am certainly not suggesting everyone use them. But to say that people who use them are abusing their dogs like people who hit their dogs is not true and rather extreme.