Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[corvus]

Joe, where this good dog being? You talka da talk, but every dog is wrong dog to you. How you say, maybe Joe hasn't found dog he can train yet, so all dog being not good dog?

Just kidding, but seriously, I would love it if you stopped mashing something that is so beautiful. Behaviour is complex and multi-faceted. It's both genetic and adaptive. That's what makes it so elegant and so fascinating. Distilling it down to a clumsy dichotomy is quite horrible to watch.

[davidthedogman]

I say this in respect please not take to this the wrong way, but Mr David I am hoping you not consider to train theis Mali girl in protection shes a fear biter in the making up sounds to me wrong dog yes?. This socialise and bad start in life is bull, yes you can improve behavior with the socialise and lesser the reactiveness from a scared dog, but if the dog is scared of things she dont know and react is poor temperament on the dog, good working dog dont care without good reasoning to react from past learning, good working pup should be not reacting or running away from new experience should be solid as a rock and if the react or run away they no good and need the neuter yes?

You needing for good working dog not a dog who submitting on the aversion of the prong, you needing dog who elevating aggression from aversion and make him fight harder, you not using prong or ecollar for behavior you using it to agitate aggression then stop the prong action to switch the dog off, you wanting a dog for protection that fights when offender kick him in the head, not run away from pain yes? and using the prong or ecollar to get control and the obedience is good for dogs of poor character, not for control of potential protection dogs.

No good Schutzhund club should be allowing the prong or ecollar for training cannot be using this tools Schutzhund trial and if the dog needing this tools for behavior, dog should be rejected for training is wrong temperament for the job.

Joe

Thankyou, but do not fear, she is way to young for any form of defensive training, every Malinois i have done over the years, works in prey, and does nothing but obedience and scent work for the first year, at 14 months I will stake test here, to what is actually in there.

If she is not suitable for man work, she will already be tracking / trailing in drive, as per Leerburg / RMCP / ADF standard. If she makes the grade we will do KPNV as with our other dogs, but only if she even tempered, no fear or aggression. I like my dogs to switch off and on like a light switch, hope this allays your fears on this.

I have decided I will return to Logan on Friday and train adjacent to them, outside the pine log fence if I have to, it's about the dog not me.

[Staranais]

Thankyou, but do not fear, she is way to young for any form of defensive training, every Malinois i have done over the years, works in prey, and does nothing but obedience and scent work for the first year, at 14 months I will stake test here, to what is actually in there.

If she is not suitable for man work, she will already be tracking / trailing in drive, as per Leerburg / RMCP / ADF standard. If she makes the grade we will do KPNV as with our other dogs, but only if she even tempered, no fear or aggression. I like my dogs to switch off and on like a light switch, hope this allays your fears on this.

Sounds pretty sensible to me. Let us know how you go with the tracking in drive - I do something similar with my mally as part of her SAR training. Didn't know you could do KNPV in Aussie, though?

[davidthedogman]

Ok eberyone after much searching I found this in the ANKC

Rules for the conduct of

Obedience Trials

(Effective from 1st January 2011)

Approved by the Australian

National Kennel Council 1965

One of the sections for Judging.

Collars and Leads:

All dogs must have a slip or fixed collar which fits only the dog's neck and which must remain on the dog

at all times. No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control shall be permitted.

The minimum length of lead will be 750 mm and it will be fitted with a quick release fastener. All dogs

must enter and leave the Ring on a lead. In exercises that require a dog to be off-lead, the lead will be

taken off and handed to the Steward at the Start Peg.

All exercises with the exception of ‘Heel on Lead’ and ‘Stand for Examination’ in the Community

Companion Dog Class must be executed off-lead.

The above rule does not extend to club obedience only trials, in the club training section this is not mentioned at all. So I was confused before, now I am scratching my head.. Now I read this rule to mean you cannot have the advantage of a pinch collar, nothing to do with the welfare of the dog at all!!!!!

[Bull Arab]

I have decided I will return to Logan on Friday and train adjacent to them, outside the pine log fence if I have to, it's about the dog not me.

Seriously? is it worth the grief for you and the club and the innocent folks just going to train and enjoy their dogs? It is not about you v the club there are mums and dads and kiddies and their dogs there as well! No doubt it will get heated again and just be unpleasant and that will reflect in the way your dog perceives the situation and wont help your training will it? We go out it gets stressful, people yell, this wide world is a scary place!!! Why bother? Would the bigger person not just walk away and find somewhere else? I could even give you some sensible suggestions if you are looking for somewhere nearby to socialize your dog and train it using what works for you.

[Staranais]

Why would anyone yell at him for training his dog close to but outside the club grounds (which is what I think he's saying he is going to do)? If they did such a thing, they'd be the ones that were being unreasonable and aggressive. The club doesn't own all the land around the club, other dog owners are allowed to use it like any other public space.

[davidthedogman]

I have decided I will return to Logan on Friday and train adjacent to them, outside the pine log fence if I have to, it's about the dog not me.

Seriously? is it worth the grief for you and the club and the innocent folks just going to train and enjoy their dogs? It is not about you v the club there are mums and dads and kiddies and their dogs there as well! No doubt it will get heated again and just be unpleasant and that will reflect in the way your dog perceives the situation and wont help your training will it? We go out it gets stressful, people yell, this wide world is a scary place!!! Why bother? Would the bigger person not just walk away and find somewhere else? I could even give you some sensible suggestions if you are looking for somewhere nearby to socialize your dog and train it using what works for you.

Bull Arab thanks for the reply. It is not about a screaming match. I will not raise my voice, it is about our pup getting what she needs, if I keep going from one place to another and get told off all the time why bother, she needs building and confidence, she will get that regardless of what this guys says.

I will not be part of a confrontation, so the choice is his, just leave alone and let me train..... Easy I reckon.

Edited September 12, 2011 by davidthedogman

[wherezaball]

I have been following this thread with interest reading all the different opinions which is to be expected on a forum such as this. It does tend to remind me of a couple quotes from some very well respected trainers;

Dr Ian Dunbar - the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong

Susan Garrett - punishment starts where understanding stops....

[Bull Arab]

I have been following this thread with interest reading all the different opinions which is to be expected on a forum such as this. It does tend to remind me of a couple quotes from some very well respected trainers;

Dr Ian Dunbar - the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong

Susan Garrett - punishment starts where understanding stops....

If it's classic quotes you want I would like to quote the second best animal trainer I know and the person who has inspired me the most when it comes to understanding animals and training for the love of just training:---Mr Monty Roberts

For a young boy, it is a long time before he knows his alphabet. A longer time before he can spell, and maybe years before he can read distinctly; and yet, there are people who will get on a young horse, entirly untaught, and undressed, fancy that by beating and spurring, they will make him a dressed horse in one moring only. I would love to ask such stupid people whether by beating a boy they would teach him how to read without first showing him the alphabet? Sure they would beat him to death before they would make him read.

- Monty Roberts

[Seita]

this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be.

CLUB RULES

All dogs must have current vaccinations.

Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground.

No training for bitches in season.

Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction.

No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted)

I can't help but comment on this! Their main training methods are check and drag... sorry but they are breaking their own rules!

My point in all of this is thus. If a rule is stated as CCCCQ and the Clubs Rules, then an associated body under Fair Trade Acts, must have a Constitution and code of practice published with rules. I have absolutely no problems with that, the problem I did have was when I politely asked to see the rule, just because he said, is not good enough for me sorry.

He then went on to say that NO club in QLD would allow. I WENT THERE TO SOCIALIZE.. not to train but let her see that other dogs and people were not a threat when she was wearing her training equipment, the pinch is used as it will not cause the damage a check would if she trued to bolt expectantly.

Guys I did not go to this club with the intention of being a toss. I did not tell them who I am and what I do. I just wanted to be Mr anon and train my dog with other dogs around, the first night I went I had her on a check, well behind the group, this really upset the instructor whom wanted me IN the class and she would get used to it. I explained what I was doing but she really went to town on me, telling everyone she was a SAR dog instructor and protection yadda yadda yadda. I stood there kept my mouth shut and let her get on with it.

I stayed away for a week ans did a lot more with Honey, then went back, old mate even went as far as walking up behind the class to watch me, guess what my girl and two other dogs were not impressed with him doing that. I asked him to please go to the front and not approach from behind, this is obviously what started things off.

He stood in the middle of the paddock making dogs walk around him, why I have no idea, we were doing the sit stay excersise, this is week two, with my girl and my wife's malinut away from each other doing the excersise, they break and reward, we are over the top with the reward as you do. That's when I looked up and old mate was in front, so I moved away and sat down as not to be offensive, and got another bollocking, so i thought hey mate your making the statement back it up...... FAIL no liver treat for you.

EVACUATE EVACUATE! Seriously, I know this club, I know who runs it and if I were you I wouldn't go back. You can't argue or debate with people like this and you won't be able to change their minds. There is a rule somewhere, it was printed in the CCC(Q) magazine a year or 2 ago but it's not published on their website from what I've seen. I have yet to encounter a club that is affiliated with the ANKC who will allow you to use a prong.

Alternatively I guess you could always hide the prong with a bandana or one of those prong covers so it's not obvious... otherwise if you're not actually working in the class just use the local dog parks and work on the outside untill your dog can cope with being inside the park.

[corvus]

Alternatively I guess you could always hide the prong with a bandana or one of those prong covers so it's not obvious...

Isn't that quite dishonest? It would never get through at the club I go to. They vet every dog before training starts to make sure your equipment is on right and the dog appears healthy.

[Red Fox]

I have been following this thread with interest reading all the different opinions which is to be expected on a forum such as this. It does tend to remind me of a couple quotes from some very well respected trainers;

Dr Ian Dunbar - the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong

Susan Garrett - punishment starts where understanding stops....

If it's classic quotes you want I would like to quote the second best animal trainer I know and the person who has inspired me the most when it comes to understanding animals and training for the love of just training:---Mr Monty Roberts

For a young boy, it is a long time before he knows his alphabet. A longer time before he can spell, and maybe years before he can read distinctly; and yet, there are people who will get on a young horse, entirly untaught, and undressed, fancy that by beating and spurring, they will make him a dressed horse in one moring only. I would love to ask such stupid people whether by beating a boy they would teach him how to read without first showing him the alphabet? Sure they would beat him to death before they would make him read.

- Monty Roberts

Errrr so you think that using a prong collar is akin to beating your dog?

If so then you obviously have no understanding of the tool or how to use one correctly... Prong collars have a multitude of uses beyond simple corrections for misbehaviour.

Besides, anyone who harshly and physically corrects (or "beats") their dog for something the dog does not understand is an idiot.

[bedazzledx2]

We've had a couple of eastern states judges come over to judge our Western Classic event who, at the start post, ran their hands around the dog's collar. I had no idea then why and thought it a bit strange... ;)

Alternatively I guess you could always hide the prong with a bandana or one of those prong covers so it's not obvious...

Isn't that quite dishonest? It would never get through at the club I go to. They vet every dog before training starts to make sure your equipment is on right and the dog appears healthy.

[ness]

Are you for real bedazzledx2 .

[huski]

Thats interesting bedazzled though I've never seen nor heard of it happening myself! (people covering prong collars up at clubs or trials so they can use them or judges feeling around a dogs collar).

Edited September 13, 2011 by huski

[ness]

Would it just not be easier to have people remove leads and collars at the start peg - after all we can run our agility dogs without a lead or collar on so why not obedience - has never made sense to me. Maybe leave them on for stays in case a steward has to grab a strange dog but I don't see any reason why they need to have a collar on in an obedience trial.

[RallyValley]

Would it just not be easier to have people remove leads and collars at the start peg - after all we can run our agility dogs without a lead or collar on so why not obedience - has never made sense to me. Maybe leave them on for stays in case a steward has to grab a strange dog but I don't see any reason why they need to have a collar on in an obedience trial.

They would in CCD

[Bull Arab]

Read the meaning not the words!!

Training is about understanding, listening, speaking softly and working to achieve an aim the animal (be it a dog a horse a ferret or a chicken) is as happy to achieve as you are and is happy to do display again and again and again because it wants to not because it has to.

My views on prongs and check chains are the same. In the right hands, used the right way I am sure they work, are not that harsh and i am sure they produce reliable, consistent results I have seen some fantastic outcomes from good trainers. But what about the newby???? What about the bloke who picks up a book to learn or gets a tip off the net or goes to one or two classes but doesn't really understand? What about the guy who thinks the dog is an extension of his appendage or must be dominated? Used incorrectly (intentionally or not) or used with malice the very least you can do with a check or prong is put the training back a bit, but continue to do it wrong even with the best intentions, or use it harshly and you can destroy a dog (physically and mentally)forever. If the newby gets it wrong with a treat and a clicker or with a treat and a key word the very worst they can do is train the wrong behaviour to the wrong signal. Most people can fix that given a little instruction and generally the dog is no (or very little) worse off. I know what way I would prefer to see people train.

I have been following this thread with interest reading all the different opinions which is to be expected on a forum such as this. It does tend to remind me of a couple quotes from some very well respected trainers;

Dr Ian Dunbar - the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong

Susan Garrett - punishment starts where understanding stops....

If it's classic quotes you want I would like to quote the second best animal trainer I know and the person who has inspired me the most when it comes to understanding animals and training for the love of just training:---Mr Monty Roberts

For a young boy, it is a long time before he knows his alphabet. A longer time before he can spell, and maybe years before he can read distinctly; and yet, there are people who will get on a young horse, entirly untaught, and undressed, fancy that by beating and spurring, they will make him a dressed horse in one moring only. I would love to ask such stupid people whether by beating a boy they would teach him how to read without first showing him the alphabet? Sure they would beat him to death before they would make him read.

- Monty Roberts

Errrr so you think that using a prong collar is akin to beating your dog?

If so then you obviously have no understanding of the tool or how to use one correctly... Prong collars have a multitude of uses beyond simple corrections for misbehaviour.

Besides, anyone who harshly and physically corrects (or "beats") their dog for something the dog does not understand is an idiot.

[Kavik]

Bull Arab

You know you can use a clicker and food or tug rewards as well as a check chain or prong collar? They are not mutually exclusive.

[JoeK]

No good Schutzhund club should be allowing the prong or ecollar for training cannot be using this tools Schutzhund trial and if the dog needing this tools for behavior, dog should be rejected for training is wrong temperament for the job.

It is hard enough to find a good Schutzhund club, but by you're standard the clubs which Bernhard Flinks and Ivan Balbanov train at are no good.

Mr Jeff again you talking rubbish why you do this? Ivan and the Bernard would be last people to recomending prong collar on the 6 month old pup and the last persons to be taking into the club for training the sport with reactive or fearful pup. The Schutzhund club is for training the sport, is not behavior clinic.

People say in the posts here to go to the Schutzhund club to use the prong collar, what I say is wrong concept. The Schutzhund club may be allowing the prong but most clubs wont be encouraging of this without valid reason. Most of the clubs using fur saver on the locking, most of the clubs dont allow correction collars at all for training the sport so my point is, dont be thinking automatic the Schutzhund club is accepting on the prong becuase they may telling you to take off the prong also.

Joe