Asked To Leave The Field For Prong Collar Use

[Bull Arab]

Ok again just my opinion

You are spot on how can the dog even begin to get the hint if it does not know whats going on or that you are asking it to do stuff......However, If the dog is in such a state (anxiety, lack of manners, state of fear or what ever the reason) that wont respond to the handler for anything short of a pinch collar is it really ready to be out in public? Let alone at a club of other dogs? Is this not setting up for 2 things 1. The dog may end up in a situation where it or someone else's dog is injured and 2, you may undo part of your training by letting it be in a situation where it can rehearse the exact behavior you are trying to address. Would it not be better to work on focus and response in a controlled and less public environment until the dog is ready and in the right place mentally to have positive outcomes???? I remember how long our last rescue took (F BC 10 months little socialization and VERY reactive to dogs), I don't think she began to focus full on me for 6 months (after much work and small group classes), took 10 months before we were in a place where she could work comfortably off leash in a group and is just now (almost 2 years on) ready to compete around other dogs off leash. But that's just my experience...

IMO (for what its worth and that is not much) given this dog has already had a bad start in life and is probably having nervous reactions to different situations would not making every new experience as positive as possible be the way to go? Would the dog not respond faster and associate new dogs and people with good if it was rewarded (what ever works food, play, tuggie etc) rather than given a pain stimulus?

As I said just my opinion

But what if the dog is so out of control it won't take rewards from the handler? The handler has to be able to have some control over the dog before any learning can take place.

[krustie22]

i know that a well used prong collar is a usefull tool if the circumstances are extreme enough.

Prong collars are not just for extreme circumstances

I used one on my lab for one training session only (under instructor supervision) because she pulled when she got excited. I would say she was FAR from out of control or an extreme case.

I feel that we really only needed that one session and she quickly picked up what we wanted her to do. I had been using the front leading harness and a material martingale to no effect before that.

I actually feel they are quite gentle compared to some other correctional aids like a check chain or halter.

ive seen people parade it around like a magic 5 minute fix, and i guess that has created a bit of a bad taste for me personally, but i dont have a problem with people using it. i know it is not cruel etc.

if my dog was pulling when she got excited, i would personally think i need more focus work, and more training around distractions, and maybe i need to transfer more value for her being close to me, than wanting reinforcement from the environment? but again, that is only one solution, and probably not as fast working as yours. i guess i have only thought of it as an extreme case tool as i have never thought it had a practical use for everyday training! you learn something new every day! ;)

[davidthedogman]

Case in point, my protection dog, another Malinut, has done all his man work training on the prong, full bite suit type work, where we can drag the person he has hold of, while he is wearing the pinch. I mean drag 100+ kilos while Toby has hold of him. When I say FOOSE, he stops mid fight and returns to heal, when I turn him off, the guy in the suit plays with him, would I do this on a check chain even a 10mm one NO, as it would damage his throat.

That is the level of control I want and will get from this little girl, if it takes years so be it, one small step at a time, the point is she and the old boy see the pinch they KNOW WE are going to have fun, and react with excitement.

To be fair the guy was not saying I am an idiot he was saying it is the rules. I just wanted to see it in writing. I still have not found it, and CCCQ has not replied. I am worried as a previous poster said, it is there little world right or wrong, but what if some of it is wrong and dogs get hurt? Is that the instructor or the students duty of care?

[huski]

Ok again just my opinion

You are spot on how can the dog even begin to get the hint if it does not know whats going on or that you are asking it to do stuff......However, If the dog is in such a state (anxiety, lack of manners, state of fear or what ever the reason) that wont respond to the handler for anything short of a pinch collar is it really ready to be out in public? Let alone at a club of other dogs? Is this not setting up for 2 things 1. The dog may end up in a situation where it or someone else's dog is injured and 2, you may undo part of your training by letting it be in a situation where it can rehearse the exact behavior you are trying to address. Would it not be better to work on focus and response in a controlled and less public environment until the dog is ready and in the right place mentally to have positive outcomes???? I remember how long our last rescue took (F BC 10 months little socialization and VERY reactive to dogs), I don't think she began to focus full on me for 6 months (after much work and small group classes), took 10 months before we were in a place where she could work comfortably off leash in a group and is just now (almost 2 years on) ready to compete around other dogs off leash. But that's just my experience...

For the average dog owner six months is a long time to get your dog under enough control that you can walk it outside or anywhere near distractions. I've seen owners gain control of severely aggressive dogs in minutes with a properly used prong collars.

Just because someone is using a prong collar doesn't also mean they are using rewards. It's just a tool like any other - head collar, martingale, harness, check chain, a leash and collar.

[Kavik]

It really sounds like a Schutzhund club would be more up your ally than an ANKC obedience club from what you have said you have done with your other dog. More likely to do your style of training, know more about your breed and its drive/temperament and be able to help you reach your desired goal. Many ANKC obedience clubs are not equipped to deal with high drive reactive dogs, and are either focussed on pet manners or competition obedience. A SchH club will allow you to use your collar of choice. An ANKC affiliated club will not let you use a pinch collar. It doesn't matter how much of a stink you cause, they do not use pinch collars. Are you anywhere near a SchH club?

[alpha bet]

Case in point, my protection dog, another Malinut, has done all his man work training on the prong, full bite suit type work, where we can drag the person he has hold of, while he is wearing the pinch. I mean drag 100+ kilos while Toby has hold of him. When I say FOOSE, he stops mid fight and returns to heal, when I turn him off, the guy in the suit plays with him, would I do this on a check chain even a 10mm one NO, as it would damage his throat.

That is the level of control I want and will get from this little girl, if it takes years so be it, one small step at a time, the point is she and the old boy see the pinch they KNOW WE are going to have fun, and react with excitement.

To be fair the guy was not saying I am an idiot he was saying it is the rules. I just wanted to see it in writing. I still have not found it, and CCCQ has not replied. I am worried as a previous poster said, it is there little world right or wrong, but what if some of it is wrong and dogs get hurt? Is that the instructor or the students duty of care?

Can't imagine why you are that interested in training at the Logan Allbreeds, it seems to be more standard family and obedience whereas you seem to be more experienced than the average pet owner. Their website states that all new members must attend an Induction Night - surely this was your chance to raise this issue.... would have been simple to ask then what equipment you can use.

Remember too that clubs cannot always anticipate the concept of new gear - in the horse world there are new bits and other equipment appearing all the time. Basically unless the equipment has been approved it cannot be used at associated activities. Remember to that sometimes things don't have to be written in to be legal - after all there is a thing called Common Law - which is often just common sense.

[corvus]

I was leading our girl, not even correcting, have done the foundation method with her, she sits and does not move from that position, she heals nicely, happily

trots along she is a real prancer, all on the pinch collar there is no need to correct her.

Then why do you need her to wear one?

[Bull Arab]

Guess that makes me a below average dog owner then? Especially given I think she still has a long way to go before she is where I want her to be. But I do know this girl is focused on me, looks to me for direction (most of the time)and when she is not sure often offers me a behavior to see if it's the one I want. She can work off leash in a high drive situation around other high drive dogs chasing balls and running and jumping etc and retains her focus (most of the time). She is still reactive she will still bark at things but the focus is improving and the focus is on me. One might gain control in minutes with an aid but is the dog safe off leash or around others (this was about a dog obedience club after all not a security situation) I doubt they are an instant fix, regardless of who is using them the dog will still be the dog it is when you are not physically holding the collar what then?

Ok again just my opinion

You are spot on how can the dog even begin to get the hint if it does not know whats going on or that you are asking it to do stuff......However, If the dog is in such a state (anxiety, lack of manners, state of fear or what ever the reason) that wont respond to the handler for anything short of a pinch collar is it really ready to be out in public? Let alone at a club of other dogs? Is this not setting up for 2 things 1. The dog may end up in a situation where it or someone else's dog is injured and 2, you may undo part of your training by letting it be in a situation where it can rehearse the exact behavior you are trying to address. Would it not be better to work on focus and response in a controlled and less public environment until the dog is ready and in the right place mentally to have positive outcomes???? I remember how long our last rescue took (F BC 10 months little socialization and VERY reactive to dogs), I don't think she began to focus full on me for 6 months (after much work and small group classes), took 10 months before we were in a place where she could work comfortably off leash in a group and is just now (almost 2 years on) ready to compete around other dogs off leash. But that's just my experience...

For the average dog owner six months is a long time to get your dog under enough control that you can walk it outside or anywhere near distractions. I've seen owners gain control of severely aggressive dogs in minutes with a properly used prong collars.

Just because someone is using a prong collar doesn't also mean they are using rewards. It's just a tool like any other - head collar, martingale, harness, check chain, a leash and collar.

[WreckitWhippet]

Good on you David, if you're prepared to take it all the way, I hope you win.

[Aidan3]

Win what? If you came to my classes I would expect you to abide my rules. I don't write them down and I don't have to. If I said "no clickers" and you refused to stop using your clicker I would ask you to leave and there is nothing you can do about it. The day a court upholds someone's opinion on their sovereignty to do whatever they like on my grounds is the day I take down my shingle.

[davidthedogman]

My point in all of this is thus. If a rule is stated as CCCCQ and the Clubs Rules, then an associated body under Fair Trade Acts, must have a Constitution and code of practice published with rules. I have absolutely no problems with that, the problem I did have was when I politely asked to see the rule, just because he said, is not good enough for me sorry.

He then went on to say that NO club in QLD would allow. I WENT THERE TO SOCIALIZE.. not to train but let her see that other dogs and people were not a threat when she was wearing her training equipment, the pinch is used as it will not cause the damage a check would if she trued to bolt expectantly.

Guys I did not go to this club with the intention of being a toss. I did not tell them who I am and what I do. I just wanted to be Mr anon and train my dog with other dogs around, the first night I went I had her on a check, well behind the group, this really upset the instructor whom wanted me IN the class and she would get used to it. I explained what I was doing but she really went to town on me, telling everyone she was a SAR dog instructor and protection yadda yadda yadda. I stood there kept my mouth shut and let her get on with it.

I stayed away for a week ans did a lot more with Honey, then went back, old mate even went as far as walking up behind the class to watch me, guess what my girl and two other dogs were not impressed with him doing that. I asked him to please go to the front and not approach from behind, this is obviously what started things off.

He stood in the middle of the paddock making dogs walk around him, why I have no idea, we were doing the sit stay excersise, this is week two, with my girl and my wife's malinut away from each other doing the excersise, they break and reward, we are over the top with the reward as you do. That's when I looked up and old mate was in front, so I moved away and sat down as not to be offensive, and got another bollocking, so i thought hey mate your making the statement back it up...... FAIL no liver treat for you.

[Kavik]

It doesn't sound like the club is going to be that receptive to what you want to do anyway, I would cut my losses and look for a club that is going to be more in line with what you want to do. I understand, I have a reactive dog and personally I found the majority of dog clubs to have no idea how to help, and the majority of other classmates do not listen when you tell them not to approach with their other dogs or other people - they just don't understand what you are trying to do or how your dog will react. It is difficult to find the right club especially if you have a reactive one.

Even if you get them to allow you to use a pinch collar (which I highly doubt as they are ANKC affiliated), you confronting them about it and pushing it that far is not going to endear yourself to them or get them to want to help you with your dog.

[Staranais]

I doubt you'll be able to educate these people, but good luck trying. Like I said I think allowing check chains and disallowing pinch collars is silly, but they have the right to set the rules for their own classes. So, it seems to me you have a couple of options in the meantime.

You can stay in the class, and use the tools they approve. That might work out just fine for you if you stay on the periphery of the class, well under threshold, and work on desensitisation and handler engagement. (Have you seen Michael Ellis's videos on engagement? They're pretty good).

Or, I reckon that your other option is to go as close to their class as you can while remaining on public land, and train however you like. I have often done this with obedience & agility classes - lingering well outside the class means I can train for as long as I like, using the methods I like, reward when I want, etc, but still use the dogs in the class as a distraction. They have no business telling you what to do if you're on public land, and if you are considerate and careful not to disrupt their class, they'll have no reason to get upset either.

To be honest, if they are an ANKC club, they're probably not going to have the same goals as you, they won't use the same terminology, tools or reward system as you, and the majority of the instructors simply won't be used to handling a dog like yours. I don't know how much you'd get out of training with them anyway. Like Kavik says, if you want to join a club, Schutzhund might be more your style?

Edited September 11, 2011 by Staranais

[Aidan3]

Or, I reckon that your other option is to go as close to their class as you can while remaining on public land, and train however you like. I have often done this with obedience & agility classes - lingering well outside the class means I can train for as long as I like, using the methods I like, reward when I want, etc, but still use the dogs in the class as a distraction.

That's what I have done and have recommended to clients. I even suggest taking a membership with the club, seeing as you're benefiting from their services, but there is certainly no obligation.

[Staranais]

Or, I reckon that your other option is to go as close to their class as you can while remaining on public land, and train however you like. I have often done this with obedience & agility classes - lingering well outside the class means I can train for as long as I like, using the methods I like, reward when I want, etc, but still use the dogs in the class as a distraction.

That's what I have done and have recommended to clients. I even suggest taking a membership with the club, seeing as you're benefiting from their services, but there is certainly no obligation.

Yes, I agree, I've joined two clubs before with no intention of doing any of their classes, since both were kind enough to let me enter the club grounds to do my own thing in the background when classes were going on. I don't feel any obligation to pay if I'm well outside the club grounds, though, especially if I'm only there occasionally.

[JulesP]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

[Staranais]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

While I'm on their grounds I am, and I therefore followed their rules while on their grounds. Still had no desire to participate in their classes, though.

[Aidan3]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

Only on club grounds.

[JulesP]

If you join the club though you are bound by the club's equipment rules.

Only on club grounds.

Aren't we talking about on club grounds????

My club doesn't use check chains but they can't stop people using them outside of the training day.

I could go down to the grounds tomorrow and use a check chain if I felt the need as it is public property.

(Am using check chain as an example as I am in Victoria)

[huski]

Guess that makes me a below average dog owner then? Especially given I think she still has a long way to go before she is where I want her to be. But I do know this girl is focused on me, looks to me for direction (most of the time)and when she is not sure often offers me a behavior to see if it's the one I want. She can work off leash in a high drive situation around other high drive dogs chasing balls and running and jumping etc and retains her focus (most of the time). She is still reactive she will still bark at things but the focus is improving and the focus is on me. One might gain control in minutes with an aid but is the dog safe off leash or around others (this was about a dog obedience club after all not a security situation) I doubt they are an instant fix, regardless of who is using them the dog will still be the dog it is when you are not physically holding the collar what then?

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that I think it's fantastic you are willing to persevere with your dog and put the time and effort in to train her.

But what I meant is that many average pet owners don't want to wait months to see results. Often if they are desperate enough to seek professional help it's not until they are at the end of their tether and they need to see quickly that they can get results with their dog, otherwise they will give up hope it can be changed.

Of course prong collars like any tool are not an instant fix but when used properly with a good training program they can help the owner get control of their dog quickly so learning and behaviour modification can then take place (and the owner has renewed hope they can get control of their dog and their dog can change), once that is achieved, you don't need to use the tool any more.

Edited September 11, 2011 by huski