RallyValley Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) http://www.rnswcc.org.au/March%2008%20Gazette.pdf On page 9. http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents/BOD-Minutes-July%2011-publication.pdf On page 10. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 4. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 13. Edited September 10, 2011 by RallyValley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Was i annoyed for being balled out? no I was annoyed for not being shown a stupid rule that does not exist. SHOW ME THE RULE So take it up with them. No point getting your tights in a twist on a discussion forum where you dont want opinions on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Kavik has a great idea, IMO - Schutzhund clubs are the only clubs I know that are happy with pinch collar use. In my experience, they're also often quite sophisticated with their use of drive and rewards, and can be experienced with malinois. Having said that, I personally wouldn't correct a 6 month old malinois pup (or allow her to correct herself) on a pinch collar for inappropriate behaviour towards other dogs or humans. I'm not sure if that is what you're doing - if you're just working her at quite a distance using the other dogs as a distraction, and correcting gently for not obeying well known commands, then perhaps that is different. Although I'd personally still want to be working a pup with reward-only at that age. Yes, I know you didn't ask for my advice. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 http://www.rnswcc.org.au/March%2008%20Gazette.pdf On page 9. http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents/BOD-Minutes-July%2011-publication.pdf On page 10. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 4. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 13. Thanks mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Kavik has a great idea, IMO - Schutzhund clubs are the only clubs I know that are happy with pinch collar use. In my experience, they're also often quite sophisticated with their use of drive and rewards, and can be experienced with malinois. Having said that, I personally wouldn't correct a 6 month old malinois pup (or allow her to correct herself) on a pinch collar for inappropriate behaviour towards other dogs or humans. I'm not sure if that is what you're doing - if you're just working her at quite a distance using the other dogs as a distraction, and correcting gently for not obeying well known commands, then perhaps that is different. Although I'd personally still want to be working a pup with reward-only at that age. Yes, I know you didn't ask for my advice. ;) Your spot on. They are and she is a little prey monster food is the motivation, and that is what I was attempting to do..... And I do take advice thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Contact either Gold Coast Sportdog Club or Brisbane Sporting Dog Club. You'll probably find that they are much more open minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Yep definitely try: http://www.bsdc.sportdogaustralia.com/index.htm It isn't about whether or not we think it's fair ANKC affiliated clubs aren't permitted to use prong collars or e-collars legally - IMO like Staranais I can't see the logic in it when they use tools like check chains and head collars. However, at the end of the day, those are the rules those clubs have to abide by. Like others I would just find a club or trainer that will work with you with methods you prefer (that's what I did) It's also not about open mindedness. I instruct at an ANKC affiliated club and I have no issues with prongs, e-collars etc. I don't use them at the club however as those are the rules. Schutzhund/IPO clubs aren't ANKC affiliated so they can use whatever tools they like as long as they are abiding by the law. Edited September 10, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Are there any studies that compare different dog training restraints like flat collars, choke chains, e-collars, pinch collars, martingales, various harness configurations etc? My vet thinks that choke chains do no harm but my dog hates it. She's fine in a front attach harness or off lead. The physics of a choke chain do not look pretty to me. Ie a lot of pressure and leverage (power) can be applied using of these in a way that other collars with wider contact on the neck and limited slip do not. I've heard of a study that says that e-collars correctly used result in less stress hormones, but I've never seen it. I'm sure choke collars can cause neck injuries and sometimes death - but I've never seen a collected report on it that I could show my vet and club president - so we can have more leeway in training tools allowed. It doesn't help that competition obedience allows flat collar or choke collar and not much else (and this would be the main reason why ANKC affiliated obedience clubs don't allow anything else much). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Kavik has a great idea, IMO - Schutzhund clubs are the only clubs I know that are happy with pinch collar use. In my experience, they're also often quite sophisticated with their use of drive and rewards, and can be experienced with malinois. Having said that, I personally wouldn't correct a 6 month old malinois pup (or allow her to correct herself) on a pinch collar for inappropriate behaviour towards other dogs or humans. I'm not sure if that is what you're doing - if you're just working her at quite a distance using the other dogs as a distraction, and correcting gently for not obeying well known commands, then perhaps that is different. Although I'd personally still want to be working a pup with reward-only at that age. Yes, I know you didn't ask for my advice. ;) Your spot on. They are and she is a little prey monster food is the motivation, and that is what I was attempting to do..... And I do take advice thankyou. Good, I'm glad you weren't offended! I've been through the baby malinois crazy months too, I remember they weren't all that much fun. But I think you're on the right track, heaps and heaps of motivation plus absolute consistency (and the occasional consequence for really appalling behaviour) got us through in one piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I know at our dog club its written in the handout book we are first given that no check chains or other collars like e collars or prong are allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustie22 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be. CLUB RULES All dogs must have current vaccinations. Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground. No training for bitches in season. Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction. No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted) Edited September 10, 2011 by krustie22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 How is using a prong collar harsh or severe punishment Or harsher than a CC or head collar? Not questioning whether or not the club is permitted by the ANKC/CCCQ to use them, but I just don't see how the above can "defend" their decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Arab Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 IMO (for what its worth and that is not much) given this dog has already had a bad start in life and is probably having nervous reactions to different situations would not making every new experience as positive as possible be the way to go? Would the dog not respond faster and associate new dogs and people with good if it was rewarded (what ever works food, play, tuggie etc) rather than given a pain stimulus? As I said just my opinion Kavik has a great idea, IMO - Schutzhund clubs are the only clubs I know that are happy with pinch collar use. In my experience, they're also often quite sophisticated with their use of drive and rewards, and can be experienced with malinois. Having said that, I personally wouldn't correct a 6 month old malinois pup (or allow her to correct herself) on a pinch collar for inappropriate behaviour towards other dogs or humans. I'm not sure if that is what you're doing - if you're just working her at quite a distance using the other dogs as a distraction, and correcting gently for not obeying well known commands, then perhaps that is different. Although I'd personally still want to be working a pup with reward-only at that age. Yes, I know you didn't ask for my advice. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidthedogman Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be. CLUB RULES All dogs must have current vaccinations. Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground. No training for bitches in season. Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction. No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted) I agree 100% against anyone hurting the dogs, but harsh or severe discipline???? what is that exactly? If an Akita is about to kill the person or dog next to it, please be a good dog, oh you bit them bad bad dog??? You know that is just rubbish. I was leading our girl, not even correcting, have done the foundation method with her, she sits and does not move from that position, she heals nicely, happily trots along she is a real prancer, all on the pinch collar there is no need to correct her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 IMO (for what its worth and that is not much) given this dog has already had a bad start in life and is probably having nervous reactions to different situations would not making every new experience as positive as possible be the way to go? Would the dog not respond faster and associate new dogs and people with good if it was rewarded (what ever works food, play, tuggie etc) rather than given a pain stimulus? As I said just my opinion The prong collar is not necessarily a pain stimulus, and indeed if used correctly should not cause pain at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustie22 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be. CLUB RULES All dogs must have current vaccinations. Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground. No training for bitches in season. Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction. No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted) I agree 100% against anyone hurting the dogs, but harsh or severe discipline???? what is that exactly? If an Akita is about to kill the person or dog next to it, please be a good dog, oh you bit them bad bad dog??? You know that is just rubbish. I was leading our girl, not even correcting, have done the foundation method with her, she sits and does not move from that position, she heals nicely, happily trots along she is a real prancer, all on the pinch collar there is no need to correct her. i know that a well used prong collar is a usefull tool if the circumstances are extreme enough. i dont think i would personally ever use one, and if it came to that, every other avenue would have to be exhausted. but from the clubs possible point of view (which i am not defending in any way) they may see it as Harsh or severe discipline. you seem intelligent, so surely you understand not everyone takes the time to learn about every piece of training equipment. they are probably just uneducated about this tool, and have jumped straight to the conclusion that it looks scary therefore must be dangerous... IMO it is quite silly, if you are not harming your dog, and it is not interfering with anyone else, i dont see the problem...but i dont run that club. chances are, the person/people that do, are like so many others, and are set in their ways that "our way is the right way, and there is no other way"... I feel bad for you in this predicament, but maybe this is one fight that is not worth fighting. If you are keen to train your dog, look around for a slightly more open minded and accepting club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 IMO (for what its worth and that is not much) given this dog has already had a bad start in life and is probably having nervous reactions to different situations would not making every new experience as positive as possible be the way to go? Would the dog not respond faster and associate new dogs and people with good if it was rewarded (what ever works food, play, tuggie etc) rather than given a pain stimulus? As I said just my opinion But what if the dog is so out of control it won't take rewards from the handler? The handler has to be able to have some control over the dog before any learning can take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustie22 Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 How is using a prong collar harsh or severe punishment Or harsher than a CC or head collar? Not questioning whether or not the club is permitted by the ANKC/CCCQ to use them, but I just don't see how the above can "defend" their decision. it can be defended if that is what they wrote the rule for. it is their rule, to be interpreted as they see fit. doesn't mean it is a good rule, and doesn't mean it is based on informed opinion. but it is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) http://www.rnswcc.org.au/March%2008%20Gazette.pdf On page 9. http://www.dogsnsw.org.au/upload/documents/BOD-Minutes-July%2011-publication.pdf On page 10. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 4. http://www.rnswcc.org.au/May%202009%20Gazette.pdf On page 13. These documents seem to refer to a ban on spike/d collars ... To me ... this is a spike collar - I wouldn't call a prong/pinch collar a 'spike' collar Edited September 10, 2011 by Tilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 i know that a well used prong collar is a usefull tool if the circumstances are extreme enough. Prong collars are not just for extreme circumstances I used one on my lab for one training session only (under instructor supervision) because she pulled when she got excited. I would say she was FAR from out of control or an extreme case. I feel that we really only needed that one session and she quickly picked up what we wanted her to do. I had been using the front leading harness and a material martingale to no effect before that. I actually feel they are quite gentle compared to some other correctional aids like a check chain or halter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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