Bite Release Advice

[Gayle.]

Shae has always been like it (well as long as I've had her which is since Feb this year) but she has gotten worse as she's bonded closer with me. It's MY duty to protect her from dogs coming into her space as I'm the one who puts the lead on her.

If she snaps at them, I haven't done my job properly.

[corvus]

My sympathies go out to you!

A dog with that potential needs to have a muzzle in public at all times.

I would also love to know what the 'right' thing to do is since you were also at risk of being bitten.

What a ridiculous comment - the dog was under control and was (in its mind) rushed by an out of control rude little dog. That is not a friendly advance. As the OP has already pointed out the right thing to do would have been to have her dog under control in the first place.

Well, I don't know, in the interests of avoiding injury I think if I had a dog that was likely to respond to being approached with uninhibited bites, I would muzzle it in public. I don't need another dog or human being injured on my conscience, thanks, regardless of whether I was the one in the right or not.

Snapping is another matter. If a dog doesn't intend to cause damage they won't.

[Joypod]

My sympathies go out to you!

A dog with that potential needs to have a muzzle in public at all times.

I would also love to know what the 'right' thing to do is since you were also at risk of being bitten.

What a ridiculous comment - the dog was under control and was (in its mind) rushed by an out of control rude little dog. That is not a friendly advance. As the OP has already pointed out the right thing to do would have been to have her dog under control in the first place.

This sort of ignorance really gets me cranky - if your dog runs up to another dog that is minding its own business in an area that is meant to be ON lead then be prepared to take responsibility for it - just like the OP has.

Thanks Agility Dogs, i do take full responsibility. I don't even blame Gus. Sure he ran up to the other dog but I should have had control over him in the first place and I took him to the park and let him off lead. Believe me, lesson learned! ;)

I'm not so sure the other dog needs to be muzzled. As other people have said, he was in the right, I/Gus were in the wrong. He shouldn't be punished for doing something I wouldn't blame my dog for doing if he were in the same situation.

[corrie]

Glad Gus came out of it OK joypod. Scary.

Every time I see your siggy I always do a double scroll back to have another look at Daisy. She is so cute.

[B-Q]

My sympathies go out to you!

A dog with that potential needs to have a muzzle in public at all times.

I would also love to know what the 'right' thing to do is since you were also at risk of being bitten.

What a ridiculous comment - the dog was under control and was (in its mind) rushed by an out of control rude little dog. That is not a friendly advance. As the OP has already pointed out the right thing to do would have been to have her dog under control in the first place.

Well, I don't know, in the interests of avoiding injury I think if I had a dog that was likely to respond to being approached with uninhibited bites, I would muzzle it in public. I don't need another dog or human being injured on my conscience, thanks, regardless of whether I was the one in the right or not.

Snapping is another matter. If a dog doesn't intend to cause damage they won't.

See, Buster is very DA. Because of this he is ALWAYS onleash. If approached by another dog then he's going to try to grab it. I refuse to muzzle him because I've run into plenty of loose dogs in his lifetime and his reaction in a muzzle would be the same if he didn't have it. I keep him under control and with me at all times, I won't place him in danger of not being able to defend himself should another dog thats in the wrong approaches him.

To the OP, I'm sorry this happened. its always distressing when things like this happen.

I usually go for the collar and try to choke them off. Havn't been in the situation to use the wheelbarrow technique.

[corvus]

See, Buster is very DA. Because of this he is ALWAYS onleash. If approached by another dog then he's going to try to grab it. I refuse to muzzle him because I've run into plenty of loose dogs in his lifetime and his reaction in a muzzle would be the same if he didn't have it. I keep him under control and with me at all times, I won't place him in danger of not being able to defend himself should another dog thats in the wrong approaches him.

Your choice. In my LGA dogs can be seized and euthanised if they attack another dog or person. I have no idea how it would play out if the dog was on leash at the time. I wouldn't want to test it is all. Honestly, I can't imagine a dog being in more danger in a dog fight if it was muzzled, particularly if it was liable to lock on and take no prisoners. The ugliest fights I have seen turned ugly when someone didn't win in the first few moments. But I've never seen a muzzled dog in a fight. If I had to break one up I'd be happy if one dog was muzzled. It would make my job easier. If it was mine that was at least I would be assured that if there were any disputes about damage they could be laid firmly to rest.

[Joypod]

Glad Gus came out of it OK joypod. Scary.

Every time I see your siggy I always do a double scroll back to have another look at Daisy. She is so cute.

Thanks Corrie.

Yeah, Daisy is a very pretty girl indeed. She's got a sweet personality too.

[Tilly]

I have had my two dogs go at each other and usually I can verbally seperate them ... but one day the older boy got stuck into the younger one and wouldn't back off - he had him by the face and the younger boy was screaming blue murder. I was able to grab the older boy by the back legs and walk him backwards into the "puppy pen" and lock him in - thankfully he did let go and the younger dog didn't use it as an opportunity to get even. While it may not work in all situations - it does work.

We have previously used the choking method when two of our other dogs had a brawl (our older GSD and our previous dog - rottie) ... and it is really hard to choke the dog enough to make them let go. We have had the dog off the ground and he still wouldn't let go - he would have had to pass out first and I am not sure I could of done that to him being a big dog. A full jet of water to the face was the only thing that worked in that particular situation.

[OSoSwift]

In th past I have only used the choking off method, it is rather difficult if you have a very large dog or a very thick strong neck. Lifting up by the bag legs can work, but never never pull in any way.

Glad your little guy is okay and I think you did the best thing by calmly supporting your puppy and avoiding extra pressure on delicate areas. It is very lucky it wasn't worse on such a little neck like his.

Out of interest I had two Dobe bitches. They got to a point (eventually) where I could tell the young one was testing the waters a little but didn't not think it woule escalate as quickly and ferociously as it did.

I think it started when they both tried to cock their legs on the same thing at the same time, but was a bit far away and it was dark - they had in the past has pissing competitions.

The old bitch wore a basket muzzle as she had had three stomach surgeries for bloat/tortion and had gotten to a point where she gorged on anything she could find - rocks, sticks, cape weed you name it, so when she was out running aorund she wore the muzzle. This night the two got into a fight, one that wasn't stopped verbally, even when the F word was used which for some reason always brought them to a screaming halt???

The young one was grabbing the old one over her shoulders and was trying to throw her over but she couldn't as they were both wearing coats. There was multiple bite wounds to the older bitches face, ears and lips and teeth marks on her muzzle. I believe the only reason the old bitch was infact still alive and the young one did back off when I got close enough was the fact the old bitch could not retaliate and could not hurt the young bitch. She did try to fight back, but didn't actually inflict any pain. I believe if the old bitch had of fought back, and in her younger days she had had a serious scrap or two with her sister, then I think that would have fueled the young bitch and her attack would have been far more serious. I also think the fact she couldn't throw her as her coat was moving independantly of her also helped - as well as the coat having an extended neck helped shield the blows from her throat/neck a bit.

I would be hesitant to walk a dog in a muzzle though.

[dancinbcs]

My sympathies go out to you!

A dog with that potential needs to have a muzzle in public at all times.

I would also love to know what the 'right' thing to do is since you were also at risk of being bitten.

What a ridiculous comment - the dog was under control and was (in its mind) rushed by an out of control rude little dog. That is not a friendly advance. As the OP has already pointed out the right thing to do would have been to have her dog under control in the first place.

This sort of ignorance really gets me cranky - if your dog runs up to another dog that is minding its own business in an area that is meant to be ON lead then be prepared to take responsibility for it - just like the OP has.

Thanks Agility Dogs, i do take full responsibility. I don't even blame Gus. Sure he ran up to the other dog but I should have had control over him in the first place and I took him to the park and let him off lead. Believe me, lesson learned! ;)

I'm not so sure the other dog needs to be muzzled. As other people have said, he was in the right, I/Gus were in the wrong. He shouldn't be punished for doing something I wouldn't blame my dog for doing if he were in the same situation.

The other thing to try and remember, is that many dogs will put an obnoxious one on the ground and old them down by the throat, to teach them some manners. To me this sounds like what happened here. You dog rushed into the other dogs space and he pinned him by the throat. The fact that your dog was uninjured tells me that if the other dog had been truly aggressive, he would have done some damage. Most dogs will not do any damage if the other dog gives in and lies still so the only thing you need to do is wait for them to let go. Sometimes just flicking the dog on top, on the side and calling them is enough to break their concentration so they let go. Only truly aggressive dogs and those bred to fight will continue to bite another dog once it gives in.

If the dog doing the attacking is actually biting (drawing blood) then you need to intervene but if it is just pinning the other dog down, interfering can cause it to escalate. It is very normal dog behaviour for one dog to pin another down especially when adult dogs are teaching manners to youngsters. I had one bitch who was top dog here and she would pin down any new dog that entered the yard. She never put a mark on any of them and once they submitted she would let them up and play with them. None ever challenged her authority.

[BJean]

Well, I don't know, in the interests of avoiding injury I think if I had a dog that was likely to respond to being approached with uninhibited bites, I would muzzle it in public. I don't need another dog or human being injured on my conscience, thanks, regardless of whether I was the one in the right or not.

Snapping is another matter. If a dog doesn't intend to cause damage they won't.

This is really daft. Dog legislation comes as no surprise when you have logic and expectations about dogs such as this.

What you define as 'approach',

a dog confined by leash (and therefore cannot respond with flight, only fight)

can easily deem attack. Particularly given the morphology of the frenchie rushing towards it.

The on lead dog caused no damage to the frenchie. Did not bite. Was not even frenzied. Just a calm pin hold to the ground.

Very nice behaviour imo

Edited September 7, 2011 by lilli

[corvus]

I did say "with uninhibited bites". I didn't want to speculate on this particular case as I wasn't sure what happened. My comment was a general one. I don't think it's fair on other dogs to walk a dog that is likely to cause injury without a muzzle. By injury, I mean stitches or extensive bruising. It's a personal perspective, though. I wouldn't want to witness any dog being injured, regardless of whether their owners are doing the right thing or not.

[cornell]

Obviously many of you have never been in the frightening situation where an unknown large dog has had its jaws wrapped around you or your precious dog in a public place. I sincerely hope that you can reach a new level of understanding without having that direct experience.

It was not ideal for Gus to approach another dog but it often happens

(and just for the record my dog was on its leash).

There is no way that owners are able to fully protect others in public 100% of the time from harm from a dog who is known to inflict serious damage with just a leash. All it takes is for them to be distracted for a second or for something unexpected to happen (like another dog who accidentally approaches.) Next time innocent people could also be unintentionally injured trying to break up this attack. It all happens so quickly yet the emotional effects can be long lasting.

[dee lee]

Most owners of DA dogs are exceedingly vigilant & go to great lengths to avoid being in proximity of other dogs.

They will never let their dog offlead, or go to areas where dogs are permitted offlead.

They are very much aware of the consequences of a lapse of judgement & will not be distracted.

It's not difficult as long as other owners abide by the law and have their own dogs onlead in public. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

From my experience, the idiots who roam the streets with their dog illegally offlead are a much bigger problem for everyone.

I dont see why a responsible owner of a DA dog should be the one to take further steps.

Next you will be muzzling them at home, just in case a roaming dog gets into their yard.

And I think Agiltydogs has hit the nail on the head re the OP.

Edited September 7, 2011 by dee lee

[Quickasyoucan]

Most owners of DA dogs are exceedingly vigilant & go to great lengths to avoid being in proximity of other dogs.

They will never let their dog offlead, or go to areas where dogs are permitted offlead.

They are very much aware of the consequences of a lapse of judgement & will not be distracted.

It's not difficult as long as other owners abide by the law and have their own dogs onlead in public. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

From my experience, the idiots who roam the streets with their dog illegally offlead are a much bigger problem for everyone.

I dont see why a responsible owner of a DA dog should be the one to take further steps.

Next you will be muzzling them at home, just in case a roaming dog gets into their yard.

And I think Agiltydogs has hit the nail on the head re the OP.

Agree with Dee Lee and Agility Dogs.

Besides I think you will find that at least in NSW the law is very clear. A dog can be declared dangerous for an "unprovoked attack". I don't think being rushed at on leash and retaliating can by any stretch of the imagination be considered "unprovoked".

In fact on a strict reading of the law the OP's dog could be declared dangerous for rushing the leashed dog. There is no need for injury to have been caused.

This is not to have a go at the OP, none of us are perfect and they have admitted they are wrong and that they will ensure it will not happen again. that is part and parcel of the learning process and responsible dog ownership. And good on the OP.

Dee Lee has echoed exactly what my friend whose dog does not like other dogs does. She never lets her dog off lead, never goes to the dog park, I firmly believe she should be able to walk down a street (where is is ILLEGAL) to have your dog off leash, without being molested by other dogs, no matter how friendly their owners might think they are or whether the owners think it is their "right" to walk their dogs of leash. She should not have to muzzle her own dog just because other people want to break the law.

[corvus]

Dee Lee has echoed exactly what my friend whose dog does not like other dogs does. She never lets her dog off lead, never goes to the dog park, I firmly believe she should be able to walk down a street (where is is ILLEGAL) to have your dog off leash, without being molested by other dogs, no matter how friendly their owners might think they are or whether the owners think it is their "right" to walk their dogs of leash. She should not have to muzzle her own dog just because other people want to break the law.

Well, there's "should" and then there's what is. I'm not saying people with dogs that might do damage should keep them muzzled in public, but I think I would. The reason why I would be the one to take further steps is because I figure if I have an animal that is likely to cause harm in certain circumstances, it is my responsibility to make sure I prevent that. Just doing my bit by leashing my dog is ignoring the fact that some people do the wrong thing and I would consider that a breach of my responsibility to prevent my dog harming others. Muzzle the dog, then everyone is safe no matter what happens, who is the idiot, or which dogs are owned by idiots. It's not the dog's fault they aren't being kept on leash, so why should they have to pay? What's more, if your dog is muzzled, I bet you people will try harder to keep their dogs away from yours in the first place. It's a clear signal of potential danger.

[poodlefan]

Dee Lee has echoed exactly what my friend whose dog does not like other dogs does. She never lets her dog off lead, never goes to the dog park, I firmly believe she should be able to walk down a street (where is is ILLEGAL) to have your dog off leash, without being molested by other dogs, no matter how friendly their owners might think they are or whether the owners think it is their "right" to walk their dogs of leash. She should not have to muzzle her own dog just because other people want to break the law.

Well, there's "should" and then there's what is. I'm not saying people with dogs that might do damage should keep them muzzled in public, but I think I would. The reason why I would be the one to take further steps is because I figure if I have an animal that is likely to cause harm in certain circumstances, it is my responsibility to make sure I prevent that. Just doing my bit by leashing my dog is ignoring the fact that some people do the wrong thing and I would consider that a breach of my responsibility to prevent my dog harming others. Muzzle the dog, then everyone is safe no matter what happens, who is the idiot, or which dogs are owned by idiots. It's not the dog's fault they aren't being kept on leash, so why should they have to pay? What's more, if your dog is muzzled, I bet you people will try harder to keep their dogs away from yours in the first place. It's a clear signal of potential danger.

Everyone except the muzzled dog that is. It will be unable to defend itself if its reaction to an offleash dog starts a fight. On leash and muzzled, it will be defenceless.

[OSoSwift]

I also wonder if a DA dog is on leash AND muzzled and as you say PF cannot defend it's self at all (and they know it)will it make their behavior worse as they feel more defensless and therefore more likely to try and fight first/harder/earlier?

[megan_]

Most owners of DA dogs are exceedingly vigilant & go to great lengths to avoid being in proximity of other dogs.

They will never let their dog offlead, or go to areas where dogs are permitted offlead.

They are very much aware of the consequences of a lapse of judgement & will not be distracted.

It's not difficult as long as other owners abide by the law and have their own dogs onlead in public. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

From my experience, the idiots who roam the streets with their dog illegally offlead are a much bigger problem for everyone.

I dont see why a responsible owner of a DA dog should be the one to take further steps.

Next you will be muzzling them at home, just in case a roaming dog gets into their yard.

And I think Agiltydogs has hit the nail on the head re the OP.

Agree - walking Lucy is a nightmare for me. FWIW, she is small and couldn't do much harm to a dog (if it was small enough for her to hurt it, I'd kick it before it got near her). However, so many people with "game" dogs walk their dogs off leash in my area. If she arks up and they retaliate (bearing in mind that some breed standards call for this...) then she wouldn't stand a chance.

If Lucy wore a muzzle, she would still growl and have body language that sends the other dog a "fight" message. All a muzzle does nothing but prevent her from biting - it does nothing to prevent a fight.

Edited September 8, 2011 by megan_

[Atanquin]

Can I just say good on the OP for realizing it was their dogs fault not many people would see it like that or if they did they would not admit it so well done you are a fantastic dog owner ad should be more like you.

My OH mum has a dog that would bite or attack a dog that came running over to it barking and he has once ( SWF was running around on the road could have been hit by a car or bitten a person walking) he will not bite another dog who is on lead walking past or person he was just protecting himself and his owner just as if someone came running over to us shouting abuse ww would defend ourselfs. Her dog is a DA but would protect himself and his mum if he felt threatened by another dog. And this is also a dog that let's my pup jump all over his face