Breeders Beware (permission To Cross Post)

[casowner]

I spoke to the RSPCA & asked if any animal I bred was surrendered to them would they please contact me & I would come & get it. I did not want any PTS.

I explained I was a registered breeder & offered a lifetime re home but was worried in case any ever ended up there.

All animals go to their new homes desexed & microchipped.

They said NO When it comes in here it is ours & we decide what to do with it

What can you do ?

They aren't going to give something of value back when they can make some money. It's shameful they will charge you more to adopt a purebred animal than a mutt.

One reason is because otherwise everyone would pick the pure bred over the cross simply because they think they are getting a better deal/bargain. I remember that the staff argued with AWL admin about increasing the pure bred prices to make it different for this reason and I also remember tracking down breeders only to be told they weren't interested in rehoming them especially because the dogs had to be desexed first.

[tdierikx]

I know of at least one Sydney pound that scans on surrender - and if there is any discrepancy with the chip detail and the person doing the surrender, the dogs stay at the pound in question until the rightful person is contacted - they are not available for adoption or rescue until the issue is sorted. Our rescue had our name on 2 crossbreeds where this was the case - we couldn't take them until the co-owner on the chip had signed them over as well.

As for rescue or a shelter charging more for a pure breed dog - I'm not averse to that myself. We've had pure breed dogs at our rescue on occasion, and even though we might have a lot of other dogs available for adoption, the phones always ring off the hook for anything that looks pure. People love a "bargain"... *sigh*

Oh - and being second contact on the chip doesn't designate ownership... I'm always second contact on my friends' dogs - purely so that there are more possibilities for contact if the dog is lost.

T.

[Crisovar]

I feel very strongly about this topic.

As a Breeder I would always take my own back, desexed or not, and I would expect to be given that opportunity.

What irks me is that whilst rescues and shelters are crying out for assistance, and whining about too many animals and not enough resources to take them, they will not knock back the purebred ones and many do not allow the Breeder to take them back. Makes no sense to me, why not ease your burden by giving the Breeder the responsibility for their own when they are willing.

As far as microchipping goes the whole system is BS, when push comes to shove the system fails, it fails the dogs, it fails their owners and it fails their breeders. It lulls people into a false sense of security and often people learn this the hard way.

We also have too many data bases and too many instances of human error with data input.

[WreckitWhippet]

I feel very strongly about this topic.

As a Breeder I would always take my own back, desexed or not, and I would expect to be given that opportunity.

What irks me is that whilst rescues and shelters are crying out for assistance, and whining about too many animals and not enough resources to take them, they will not knock back the purebred ones and many do not allow the Breeder to take them back. Makes no sense to me, why not ease your burden by giving the Breeder the responsibility for their own when they are willing.

As far as microchipping goes the whole system is BS, when push comes to shove the system fails, it fails the dogs, it fails their owners and it fails their breeders. It lulls people into a false sense of security and often people learn this the hard way.

We also have too many data bases and too many instances of human error with data input.

This.. I feel the same way.

Don't cry poor and whinge for help, when you don't /won't give/sell dogs back to the breeders who would take them.

[tdierikx]

If our rescue gets in a pure breed dog where the breeder detail is known, we call/contact them first - if they decline, then we desex and rehome ourselves. It's a simple courtesy after all...

We also contact the breed clubs if we have a pure breed dog in rescue that needs rehoming - most clubs are great for helping find the right home for the dog.

We have also passed on certain breed dogs to their specific breed rescue group.

T.

[Christina]

I also remember tracking down breeders only to be told they weren't interested in rehoming them especially because the dogs had to be desexed first.

This must have been a long time ago as I spoke to them about 2 years ago & the person answering the phone even spoke to the supervisor. Desexing was not the issue as I did say everything was desexed. I was worried about any being PTS & explained this quite clearly. Why PTS rather than send back to the breeder ?

If they had said we rehome but if we can't you can have them back I would understand better

[~Anne~]

I only ever contacted as a courtesy to let the breeder know where their dog had ended up. I did not contact them to ask to take the dog back on most occassions, althought I have arranged this on many occassions. Whilst some breeders might be the kind I would have confidence in re-homing the dog, many are not. Many took my call and were surprised that people thought they should take the dog back, although this has certainly changed over the years with more and more deciding that they should.

It would be different though I would think if I was overloaded when rescuing, but I wasn't and I was more than able to deal with the Pugs that came through and was easily able to re-home them appropriately. One that I re-homed ended up elsewhere but there wasn't much I could do about it. The person I re-homed him to then re-homed him again less than 12 months later.

Just as it is wrong to lump breeders all in the same basket, it is just as wrong to lump rescuers in one and I feel there is a big differecne between the RSCPA or AWL and a rescue run privately in many respects as well. Rescues, unless they take surrenders, don't generally take in dogs that are not already scanned and checked as most rescues, rescue from pounds where this is done first.

Microchips do not prove ownership, so having your name second on the details won't mean much. I always added my details as awell, but it would be interesting to see just how many data entries made on the dogs I re-homed included my details as the secondary contact on the database. I didn't do it to prove ownership but to hopefully ensure the dog was never at risk sitting in a pound.... although Pugs are usually snapped up pretty quickly anyway.

[oakway]

If our rescue gets in a pure breed dog where the breeder detail is known, we call/contact them first - if they decline, then we desex and rehome ourselves. It's a simple courtesy after all...

We also contact the breed clubs if we have a pure breed dog in rescue that needs rehoming - most clubs are great for helping find the right home for the dog.

We have also passed on certain breed dogs to their specific breed rescue group.

T.

At last common sence prevails.

:thumbsup:

[StarLapyz]

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

Its been tested several times and contract law says you cant make someone promise something into the future once its their own property and you cannot put punishments on if they breach into the future because its no longer your property - basic contract law.

Your knowledge of contract law is flawed.

[~Anne~]

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

Its been tested several times and contract law says you cant make someone promise something into the future once its their own property and you cannot put punishments on if they breach into the future because its no longer your property - basic contract law.

Your knowledge of contract law is flawed.

To my knowledge a dog is sold. I think that is the crux of the inability to place a contract on the sale of a dog. Just like any other consumer product that you purchase, once paid for in full it is yours to do as you choose.

Happy for someone to clarify though as I am not experienced in legal matters although I did have a legal officer check over the contract I had my adopters sign and he gave me the impression that it wouldn't hold water if push came to shove.

[loveretrievers]

People are prepared to pay more for a purebred. The extra money from one can pay for a operation on another. Smart business practices ensure that a shelter can survive.

The breeder should have the first right to rehome the dog. It's not ethical to try to make more money on a purebred dog.

[tdierikx]

People are prepared to pay more for a purebred. The extra money from one can pay for a operation on another. Smart business practices ensure that a shelter can survive.

The breeder should have the first right to rehome the dog. It's not ethical to try to make more money on a purebred dog.

I don't see it as "unethical" to rehome a pure breed dog for more than a crossbreed if it comes into rescue... as long as you don't expect to charge the same as a breeder does for their dogs. An extra $100 or so can be used for so many other things for other dogs in care.

There is an area for comments about the dog when entering microchip info on the NSW CAR chip database - in Pickles' case, we put in that she has an unsteady gait due to a brain injury... just in case someone picked her up and took her to a vet for unnecessary procedures due to her funny walking style (ie. they thought she'd been hit by a car and hurt). I don't see why details like "contact breeder xyz on abc in case of surrender" can't be added in... or something like "breeder rehoming contract in force, contact xyz on abc in case of surrender or stray situation"

T.

[Steve]

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

Its been tested several times and contract law says you cant make someone promise something into the future once its their own property and you cannot put punishments on if they breach into the future because its no longer your property - basic contract law.

Your knowledge of contract law is flawed.

Probably is , Im no lawyer , however we paid a lawyer a truck load of money to go into contract law and property law to enable us to put together contracts which would hold up.We are also aware of several breeders of cats, dogs and horses who lost in court cases.

If you can show me how its possible for me to ensure someone I sell a car to can only return the car to me and not sell it to someone else or give it away to a wrecker after I have transferred ownership if they dont want to Im all ears. if you can show me how as an ex owner I can ensure someone doesnt change the paint job on the car or use it for drug trafficing etc after ownership has been transferred Im very keen to hear it all.

As an owner if I want to bump the dog off, breed it, sell it to someone, use it for fighting etc etc no matter what I made them promise they would do into the future it cant stick. It is their property just as my dog is my property and if I dont want my dog ever returned to its breder - and in one case I would rather put it to sleep than have it returned there then that is my right as an owner. Once a breeder takes the money and changes the ownership they are out of the loop - like it or not. These are basic rights of property owners which date back to the Magna Cata

[~Anne~]

People are prepared to pay more for a purebred. The extra money from one can pay for a operation on another. Smart business practices ensure that a shelter can survive.

The breeder should have the first right to rehome the dog. It's not ethical to try to make more money on a purebred dog.

Not in my books. The breeder should be considered as part of assessing the best outcome for the dog and they should be considered first, but certainly not the first 'right' to re-home a dog.

[Maddy]

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

Its been tested several times and contract law says you cant make someone promise something into the future once its their own property and you cannot put punishments on if they breach into the future because its no longer your property - basic contract law.

What about rights of first refusal?

That involves a transfer of property and I far as I know, can be enforced.

[Steve]

Im forever amazed at how many rescue groups set up shop or operate without standard policies and procedures so that when something like this crops up a standard answer- its against our policy - is used and there is no more to be said.

If a rescue group is going to have a policy which enables the dog to be returned to the breeder then the criteria by which that decision will be reached needs to be documented and followed.

Its difficult to believe that a bigger rescue group would accept a dog without some procedure to ensure the dog is owned by the person handing it in and that necessary protocols and procudures were not followed . It leaves them wide open to being sued and having some rotten publicity on their backs

[Rusky]

I think you will find that for the most part rescues are the same cost for pure breed as for cross breed but every now and again when there are hundreds of cross breeds it really makes sense financially to ask more for the 'pure breed' just to keep the coffers full to care for the cross breeds.

As to the original post I would have thought that the dog in question is in a good home which should be exactly what you want. The people who buy your puppies are absolutely entitled not to return to the breeder though most rescues I know it is always our first question

" have you contacted the breeder"

If we know the breeder details then a courtesy call and in most cases the breeder is absolutely not able to take the dog back. The breeders who do take dogs back generally are in the rescue business themselves and not just for their own dogs but for their breed.

I am in WA and chipping is not yet part of the dog act...the only ownership proof is shire registration, chipping reunites with owners or the rescue group as most rescues have the dog chiped to them and not the owner, the owner is a second contact.

Sometimes chips don't show up as in the case of a beautiful pure breed dog in the pound for way past her time, I heard she was there and collected her. She was scanned and no chip showed... I took her to the vet a couple of weeks later for results of a routine blood test and to get her chipped ( she was already desexed and vaccinated ) she had a chip !!! so where was it hiding ? who knows but it happens.BTW the chip owner had sold her earlier in the year and the number she gave us for the new owner was not connected. Rescue does try very hard to reunite.

[Steve]

I keep hearing that the contracts are not worth the paper they are written on but my old Law Lecturer always taught that every contract - verbal, written, implied or otherwise (regardless of what it is for, so long as the terms of the contract are not illegal) is still a contract under contract law and can be taken to court if not honoured. I know - you still have to take it to court - but isn't it time to test it? As animals are considered goods and chattel then the contract is no different to a contract for a car or a house.

Its been tested several times and contract law says you cant make someone promise something into the future once its their own property and you cannot put punishments on if they breach into the future because its no longer your property - basic contract law.

What about rights of first refusal?

That involves a transfer of property and I far as I know, can be enforced.

No idea we [ the MDBA ] set a lawyer a task and sent them on a mission to sort it out. We paid them for their leagl advice and I have no choice but to go ith that until someone can show me evidence that it woudl stick with a dog.

What if I promise you right of first refusal and something happens between when I promise and when its time to offer and I no longer think that person is fit to take the dog. Im having a difficult time seeing that if I own I have no choice but to give it back even if I dont want to.

[Trisven13]

I feel very strongly about this topic.

As a Breeder I would always take my own back, desexed or not, and I would expect to be given that opportunity.

What irks me is that whilst rescues and shelters are crying out for assistance, and whining about too many animals and not enough resources to take them, they will not knock back the purebred ones and many do not allow the Breeder to take them back. Makes no sense to me, why not ease your burden by giving the Breeder the responsibility for their own when they are willing.

As far as microchipping goes the whole system is BS, when push comes to shove the system fails, it fails the dogs, it fails their owners and it fails their breeders. It lulls people into a false sense of security and often people learn this the hard way.

We also have too many data bases and too many instances of human error with data input.

This.. I feel the same way.

Don't cry poor and whinge for help, when you don't /won't give/sell dogs back to the breeders who would take them.

I feel very strongly about this topic too and was horrified when I found out how many registered breeders didn't care when their dog was surrendered to the group or was at risk of it being surrendered - I was also saddened by how many were happy for the rescue group to rehome the dog without offering assistance. Its fair enough that not every breeder of every breed can just take an unknown adult dog into their pack but those breeders were the ones who offered help in referring homes or a donation for the dog in question.

Don't get me wrong - I've come across some great breeders but the greater majority of registered breeders contacted didn't want to know or help. It was so rare to see one who DID care that I actually nominated them for an MDBA award because of the effort that they went to to get the dog of their breeding back, safe, with them.

I'm personally aware of THREE local registered breeders who were contacted by Albury Pound about dogs of their breeding that had been impounded. One didn't return two phone calls about an entire dog surrendered with main register papers (but then accused the pound of doing the wrong thing when the dog was rehomed with those papers) and the other two said that they wouldn't be coming to get their dogs. All three show their dogs.

[Crisovar]

It appears to me that there are a huge amount of demands and expectations made on Breeders to do the right thing to provide people with the very best puppy they possibly can. To do this requires heart and commitment alongside the knowledge and experience. Then some of you expect them to just walk away unless of course an unfortunate health issue arises then you want the supportive and caring Breeder and their wallet back back. It stinks.