Testicles

[Paptacular!]

From a litter containing 3 boys who are now over 7 months old, all have an undescended testicle.

Perhaps more than a coincidence.

Anyone with ideas on why, causes etc? I'm pretty disappointed.

If it were just 1/3 I could live with that, but for all 3 to have the same issue...

[Alyosha]

Is often genetic to varying degrees (especially if more than one pup which may be able to be written off as an individual difference). Do you own the sire? And do you know the testicle status of his siblings, grandsire and his siblings? Even the granddam's silings might give you a clue? It has normally popped up somewhere before to show up at such a high volume.

[dancinbcs]

I am working on the theory of a hereditary tendency to a Vit E deficiency. I supplement all my puppies from weaning with Vit E powder and they get it daily for all of their lives, so my breeding dogs have always had it. The bitches stay on it while pregnant and their babies get it from 4 weeks. I have never bred a puppy with undescended testicles, none of my stud dogs sired, and neither has another breeder that I mentored 20 years ago, who also uses the Vitamin E. I cannot think of any other breeder in my breed who has not bred puppies with undescended testicles. It used to be just one line we thought was a problem but over the years it seems to be all lines. Just a theory at this stage but one worth trying.

[Sandra777]

Very interesting dancinbcs and I had heard there was a vitamin that was implicated in the problem but could remember which one it was - but I have reservations about this sort of treatment in the long term.

Same argument can be used for supplementing pregnant bitches with folic acid IMO

If the dog's diet is correct and adequate (and no I'm not saying your dogs' diet isn't) then if additional supplementation is required to prevent something occuring then perhaps all we are doing by continuing the supplementation is encouraging some other tiny issue in the dogs we are breeding.

If they can't uptake the required amount of vitamin E or folic acid from a good well balanced diet but need additional quantities to maintain levels which will prevent problems then perhaps all we are doing is masking a problem where they can't absorb this particular nutrient properly so perhaps we are not merely preventing the appearance of monorchidism and cleft palates which perhaps is a "byproduct" of a greater issue - the dogs have some basic (if small!) metabolic defect?

Just something I've always wondered about really..

[jr_inoz]

Did you use progesterone supplements during the pregnancy?

My girl lost her litter recently - and whilst discussing the pros and cons of progesterone supplementation with my vet (especially from week 5 onwards), in readiness for the next litter if I try again, he mentioned some articles based on studies that talk about the feminisation of male puppies (undescended testicles for eg) and the masculinisation of female puppies (have no idea how this would show up).

A couple of breeders said that they had never ever had an issue with their bitches and their progeny with progesterone injections, but a second vet told me (both vets with a good repo reputation) that whilst he progesterone tests and supplements with bitches that have lost litters, he does not recommend the injections for the same reasons. he uses progesterone tablets.

Just something else to think about.

[dancinbcs]

Very interesting dancinbcs and I had heard there was a vitamin that was implicated in the problem but could remember which one it was - but I have reservations about this sort of treatment in the long term.

Same argument can be used for supplementing pregnant bitches with folic acid IMO

If the dog's diet is correct and adequate (and no I'm not saying your dogs' diet isn't) then if additional supplementation is required to prevent something occuring then perhaps all we are doing by continuing the supplementation is encouraging some other tiny issue in the dogs we are breeding.

If they can't uptake the required amount of vitamin E or folic acid from a good well balanced diet but need additional quantities to maintain levels which will prevent problems then perhaps all we are doing is masking a problem where they can't absorb this particular nutrient properly so perhaps we are not merely preventing the appearance of monorchidism and cleft palates which perhaps is a "byproduct" of a greater issue - the dogs have some basic (if small!) metabolic defect?

Just something I've always wondered about really..

Vitamin E is deficient for optimal health in most human and animal diets these days. Many greyhound people always use Vitamins E and C on all their dogs for all their lives and I learnt it from some of them 30 years ago. After further studying Vit E, I also take it myself.

[lils mum]

... that whilst he progesterone tests and supplements with bitches that have lost litters, he does not recommend the injections for the same reasons. he uses progesterone tablets.

Just something else to think about.

Yep, it's my understanding that the tablets are the most up to date application - my ex vet was also a repro vet (he's moved on unfortunately) The dosage can be much more accurately calculated based on the ongoing prog levels.

[becks]

From a litter containing 3 boys who are now over 7 months old, all have an undescended testicle.

Perhaps more than a coincidence.

Anyone with ideas on why, causes etc? I'm pretty disappointed.

If it were just 1/3 I could live with that, but for all 3 to have the same issue...

From what I have read, it can come down the dog and bitch line, so I would give very serious thought to breeding from the sister or dam again.

Have you spoken with the breeder of your bitch and the breeder/owner of the stud dog to see if they know of relatives who were the same?

[Fordogs]

After reading this topic, I will discuss my last litter,

Since having a severe heart murmur in a puppy a few years ago I have supplemented all my bitches with Folate before and during pregnancy and all has been good but my last litter was a nightmare >>

This female has only ever delivered 2 litters of 3 pups > 1 stillborn next 4 > 1 still born so for her final litter she was given Receptal and Yeah she gave me 5 beautiful babies I was ecstatic.

But the hammer was about to fall > 1 male puppy was born with a short > just 2 vertebrae tail. He did fine that is until they were all up and walking (all he could do was bunny hop), he had a spinal deformity and had to be PTS > down to 4. The other puppies all continued to thrive > that was until they were weaned.

Next disaster was a puppy that started to vomit occasionally after meals, at first I thought it was just because she was a little pig so I slowed down her eating and she was much better but not enough for me to relax. (In my heart I knew what her problem was) but I had to know for sure so I asked my vet to do an xray and sure enough she had a megaesosphagus. I brought her back home but a week later I had to give her her wings. Broke my heart to let her go. Then there is the other male puppy he has descended testicles.

Previously to this litter except for the heart murmur I had never had any deformities.

I will NEVER supplement again and nor will I interfere with Mother Nature, she always knows best.

[Rottsup]

After reading this topic, I will discuss my last litter,

Since having a severe heart murmur in a puppy a few years ago I have supplemented all my bitches with Folate before and during pregnancy and all has been good but my last litter was a nightmare >>

This female has only ever delivered 2 litters of 3 pups > 1 stillborn next 4 > 1 still born so for her final litter she was given Receptal and Yeah she gave me 5 beautiful babies I was ecstatic.

But the hammer was about to fall > 1 male puppy was born with a short > just 2 vertebrae tail. He did fine that is until they were all up and walking (all he could do was bunny hop), he had a spinal deformity and had to be PTS > down to 4. The other puppies all continued to thrive > that was until they were weaned.

Next disaster was a puppy that started to vomit occasionally after meals, at first I thought it was just because she was a little pig so I slowed down her eating and she was much better but not enough for me to relax. (In my heart I knew what her problem was) but I had to know for sure so I asked my vet to do an xray and sure enough she had a megaesosphagus. I brought her back home but a week later I had to give her her wings. Broke my heart to let her go. Then there is the other male puppy he has descended testicles.

Previously to this litter except for the heart murmur I had never had any deformities.

I will NEVER supplement again and nor will I interfere with Mother Nature, she always knows best.

Oh Fordogs, my heart goes out to you. Here you are trying to do what you thought was the right thing and you have this.

Thank you for sharing your story and experience, I am sure many of us have learnt something from it.

[Paptacular!]

From a litter containing 3 boys who are now over 7 months old, all have an undescended testicle.

Perhaps more than a coincidence.

Anyone with ideas on why, causes etc? I'm pretty disappointed.

If it were just 1/3 I could live with that, but for all 3 to have the same issue...

From what I have read, it can come down the dog and bitch line, so I would give very serious thought to breeding from the sister or dam again.

Have you spoken with the breeder of your bitch and the breeder/owner of the stud dog to see if they know of relatives who were the same?

My bitches breeder owns the stud also. I feel it's almost too late to discuss, that I've left it too long to 'wait and see' if they drop.

I'd have to say I won't be breeding from the litter sister to these boys, and I really don't think I will breed my bitch again. Start again.

[Elenbah]

From a litter containing 3 boys who are now over 7 months old, all have an undescended testicle.

Perhaps more than a coincidence.

Anyone with ideas on why, causes etc? I'm pretty disappointed.

If it were just 1/3 I could live with that, but for all 3 to have the same issue...

From what I have read, it can come down the dog and bitch line, so I would give very serious thought to breeding from the sister or dam again.

Have you spoken with the breeder of your bitch and the breeder/owner of the stud dog to see if they know of relatives who were the same?

My bitches breeder owns the stud also. I feel it's almost too late to discuss, that I've left it too long to 'wait and see' if they drop.

I'd have to say I won't be breeding from the litter sister to these boys, and I really don't think I will breed my bitch again. Start again.

Hi Paptacular, I don't know what has gone wrong with your litter but as you know, I own your bitches litter sister. In Oct. last year she had 4 boys and the 4 of them had their testicles come down, although I used a different line in selecting a stud.. Our girls only litter brother is entire and although I don't know what the sire of your pups is producing, I do know your breeder would not be using him if it were a problem.... If you had a vitamin deficiency or not I do not know but one of the first things my vet says if a puppy has a testicle sitting high, is not to have the pup too heavy and to place him on Zinc tablets.... Your bitch was a good mum and I would not be giving up so easily on her...maybe you need to go out and use another line? It's OK to say I'll just start over, but you need to know what the problem was and why it happened before leaping into something else, you may end up with the same problem or some others....

If you want to PM me, maybe we can find out together what's gone wrong???

[Paptacular!]

As far as I know he's been used successfully at stud before, it may have just been a wrong combination resulting in a recessive gene coming out? Half brother and sister mating so could have been a double up of something hidden?

I've been doing more thinking and next time I think I will outcross.

[Tapua]

My girls all get a mixture of brewers yeast, dolamite (calcium) & kelp which covers the B complex, Iron,calcium. The powder mix is placed in a large salt shaker and shook over 4 -6 meals a week. I was told undescended testes is a genetic thing where the bitch carries the trait and the dog expresses the problem. But that was 20 years ago. I think the lack of a balanced diet or inability to uptake certain vitamins and minerals maybe closer to the truth. Mine you I have large breed - Labradors - I would think any food suppliment for a toy breed must be very carefully done.