Drive Questions

[JulesP]

The stock might be the reward but the handler still controls the dogs access to that reward.

Same with agility if the dog finds the obstacles very rewarding. They get taken off the obstacles.

[Vickie]

Regardless Corvus why would you want your dog to value anything more than the rewards you offer?

I didn't say you would want it. I just said maybe some people have to handle it anyway and do so successfully. In a stockdog you would want it. How else are you going to get them to do what you need them to do?

There is so much emphasis put on reward value and so little on methods of controlling reward access and conditioning. I don't think we need to be afraid of our dogs coming to love something more than us. We just have to be sensible about how we manage their access to those things. Having a dog that loves to run agility courses more than they love, say, a game of tug is not necessarily a bad thing in itself. Failing to control their access to equipment so that it's not contingent on the desired behaviour is. In contrast, I find it highy unlikely that I'll ever be able to sufficiently control access to, say, wallabies. So dogs are on leash around wallabies. She says, hopefully. Either that or I get some e-collars.

In a stock dog, there are no rewards other than the work. However you can still reward the dogs with various components of the work.

In agility, having a dog that loves to run the course more than taking a reward such as tug or food that you offer IS a bad thing if you want to be successful. It is almost impossible to train these dogs to respond to the the finer points of handling & obstacle performance and it can also be downright dangerous.

[Agility Dogs]

Personally I would be hesitant to have a dog who saw anything we did in the ring (like a retrieve or doing obstacles in agility) as more valuable than what I had to offer and reinforcing on it's own. I think it can lead to a lot of other issues IMO.

ROFL. Have you met Xena?

[Agility Dogs]

Regardless Corvus why would you want your dog to value anything more than the rewards you offer?

To use agility as an example though I don't know much about agility itself - I see dogs who ignore their handlers in favour of running through obstacles like tunnels and therefore self rewarding on the course. I know some people consider desirable for the dog to value the equipment like that but personally it's not something I'd ever want or train for. I want my dog running the course because it gives her access to my rewards, the same with anything else I train. JMO, but I can't see any benefit to having a dog that finds certain exercises self rewarding.

OK, serious answer now. Perhaps what that means is not that the dog will accept no reward, perhaps it means that the value of the reward needs to increase becauase the value of the behaviour that it was rewarding has increased beyond the reward itself?

What you seem to be suggesting is that you actually want to STOP the dog from developing value for the very thing that you are training for by limiting the rewards you are prepared to use.

[huski]

No that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the thing I want my dog to develop value for is not agility, or obedience or whatever sport I am training for. Those are just the things I ask them to do so they can earn the rewards I have to offer. The value I build isn't about the sport we are training but my rewards and what I have to offer. Once you have a dog with drive and who values you and the rewards you offer then you can ask them to do x y and z to get drive satisfaction with you.

I know it's not neccessarily a popular opinion especially in sports like agility but it's just the way I see it. I am probably not explaining myself clearly either.

[bedazzledx2]

But Huski you are the one offering the reinforcer. If you go by the Premak principle you give permission (cue) to do the behaviour. In the ring that could mean permission (cue) to go to heel after the front of the recall...or to fetch the dumbell on command. Its a very valuable tool which is why if my dog stuffs up something he knows well, he doesnt get permission to complete the behaviour chain.

Personally I would be hesitant to have a dog who saw anything we did in the ring (like a retrieve or doing obstacles in agility) as more valuable than what I had to offer and reinforcing on it's own. I think it can lead to a lot of other issues IMO.

[Vickie]

No that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the thing I want my dog to develop value for is not agility, or obedience or whatever sport I am training for. Those are just the things I ask them to do so they can earn the rewards I have to offer. The value I build isn't about the sport we are training but my rewards and what I have to offer. Once you have a dog with drive and who values you and the rewards you offer then you can ask them to do x y and z to get drive satisfaction with you.

I know it's not neccessarily a popular opinion especially in sports like agility but it's just the way I see it. I am probably not explaining myself clearly either.

On the contrary Huski it's a very popular opinion and you are explaining it very clearly.

[Vickie]

What you seem to be suggesting is that you actually want to STOP the dog from developing value for the very thing that you are training for by limiting the rewards you are prepared to use.

Ahhh, but remember, the obstacles are only half the equation. The ability to get your dog around the course is the other (and probably more important once your obstacles are trained) half.

Obviously the dog has to have a reward history associated with correct obstacke performance, but Personally I want more value for my dog responding to my handling cues than any piece of equipment.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Vickie

[huski]

Bedazzled I see what you are saying but I just can't see how any benefit could out weigh the risks. If your dog values something like a dumbbell retrieve MORE than you or the rewards you have to offer how can you control his behaviour? I have seen dogs who value the dumbbell more than the handler or the handlers rewards and these are the dogs who take off with it and won't bring it back. And as soon as you release the dog to retrieve, that's it - you've given them access to the reward yet the exercise hasn't been completed yet.

[corvus]

In agility, having a dog that loves to run the course more than taking a reward such as tug or food that you offer IS a bad thing if you want to be successful. It is almost impossible to train these dogs to respond to the the finer points of handling & obstacle performance and it can also be downright dangerous.

Granted. I did think of that, but didn't feel confident to comment on the finer points. :p It was more of a general comment on value vs control. Agility was a poor example.

Incidentally, I found out I couldn't reward Erik by tossing him a toy because he only thought toys were fun if they were in my hands or he was facing me ready to catch them on the full. I ended up teaching him to target toys first. I mention it because I guess sometimes we can get too carried away making sure we are where it's all at for our dogs and forget that sometimes we want to reward them away from us as well.

[corvus]

If your dog values something like a dumbbell retrieve MORE than you or the rewards you have to offer how can you control his behaviour?

Foundation work! Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to comment on trial-related things.

I have seen dogs who value the dumbbell more than the handler or the handlers rewards and these are the dogs who take off with it and won't bring it back. And as soon as you release the dog to retrieve, that's it - you've given them access to the reward yet the exercise hasn't been completed yet.

Backchaining?

[huski]

Foundation work! Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to comment on trial-related things.

Corvus you can comment on whatever you want.

What foundation work would you do with a dog to intentionally create a higher value for a dumbell retrieve (for eg) than anything you can offer? And to avoid the dog self rewarding with it? And why is this more effective or reliable than teaching the dog - do x and you'll get an awesome reward with me?

Backchaining?

The question wasn't whether or not you can fix the behaviour but why train it in the first place when teaching your dog to value an item like a dumbell more than anything you have to offer is something that can present a lot of issues. Why not train it in a way that means those issues won't become issues in the first place?

Am I the only one who sees a problem with releasing a dog to it's ultimate reward at the start of an exercise when you still need the dog to complete numerous other steps?

When I release my dog to a reward it's about making it a reward experience and having an awesome fun time together.

Edited September 8, 2011 by huski

[ness]

Huski - Kenz has always had a huge value for her DB, scent articles, gloves - she has never run away with them the "value" to her is to complete the task as required else she loses the opportunity to complete the task. The retrieve to her is hugely rewarding and you probably know I struggled to get her to take a tug while the DB was even in sight. Like bedazzledx2 says - its the premak principle - dog doesnt do as requested dog doesn't get access to complete the task.

Kenz certainly knows the difference between a formal fetch command when I want her to race out, grab the DB and come and sit in front versus an informal fetch command when I want her to race after the object and come sprinting back and put paws up on me. A dog can certainly learn a variable response with a particular item depending on the cue it hears.

The dogs I were talking about that use "ring" items are as a reward are dogs who are trained in the exercises and already fluent. Presumably if the exercise started to break down then you would reintroduce a reward and you wouldn't then use that particular exercise as a reinforcer.

Edited September 8, 2011 by ness

[ness]

Huski wrote: Am I the only one who sees a problem with releasing a dog to it's ultimate reward at the start of an exercise when you still need the dog to complete numerous other steps?

That I guess would depend on what part of it the dog finds rewarding and sometimes you have no real choice. I had to put my seekback training on hold with Kenz when I was working through her OTT heelwork because there is no doubt to Kenz the reward of being sent to find the seekback held if not a greater value at least an equal value to that of her tug reward. I don't think with some dogs you honestly have a choice. You can build value for a reward but if the dog finds both equally rewarding hmmmm.

Yep Kenz will tug enthusiastically after presenting her seekback or her DB but I would question whether the dog hasn't already been rewarded anyway. You could easily remove the tugging from the equation and the behavior would not weaken.

Premak is hugely valuable in a ring situation I feel - whether in the end they are working for a reward at the end or not its the value for each exercise that keeps the motivation up during a round - especially in UD. All these opportunities to earn reinforcement in the ring for a dog who has value for things like jumping, articles, gloves, seekbacks. Whether you like it or not they do end up becoming reinforcing to the dog. The question I guess would be to what level and does that level override the reinforcement on offer.

My view is with some dogs they do end up becoming at least equal and that isn't a bad thing. I guess its when the value of the object is significantly greater then the reward then you might have a problem.

[huski]

Hmm, as I said Sally, I do see where you are coming from and I understand it, I just don't get it myself.

If you don't mind me asking (as I am curious about the different ways people do these things) why did you try to get Kenz to value the tug more than the dumbell if it was working that well having the retrieve be the ultimate reward for her?

At the end of the day it also comes back for me to the reward experience, and why I would want to take myself out the equation when it comes to rewarding my dog. Giving the dog permission to complete an exercise or do something highly rewarding is not creating a reward experience in the way I have a huge party with my dog when I give her access to the reward.

[ness]

because a certain somebody told me to huski ;). I guess I was always a little worried when she would refuse any "reward" when I was training scent work with her other than being allowed to go out to the pile and retrieve another one and figured if things broke down I would have nothing to come back to. So I guess thats the merit in having the tug at least equal to if not ideally greater then the the value of the ring object.

<This is all pre the TID stuff by the way>

Edited September 8, 2011 by ness

[huski]

LOL and how did that work out for you?? :p ;)

In all seriousness though I do see what you are saying, I just can't see myself training an exercise that way.

Edited September 8, 2011 by huski

[ness]

you tell me LOL. Kenz eventually got over her hate towards me after we stopped fetching and the chiro vet was much happier as there was less opportunity for her to injure herself , although that doesn't apparently stop her trashing herself and giving me heart attacks.

[Agility Dogs]

What you seem to be suggesting is that you actually want to STOP the dog from developing value for the very thing that you are training for by limiting the rewards you are prepared to use.

Ahhh, but remember, the obstacles are only half the equation. The ability to get your dog around the course is the other (and probably more important once your obstacles are trained) half.

Obviously the dog has to have a reward history associated with correct obstacke performance, but Personally I want more value for my dog responding to my handling cues than any piece of equipment.

I totally agree with what you are saying - BUT the handling cues should be that ingrained in the dog before it gets on equipment that it is a moot point. (First time I ever tried a serp on a jump with Wikki she pulled it off perfectly - same with pull throughs.) What I'm saying is that you might need to change the value of the reinforcer for other things as the dog's value for equipment rises - so they don't just keep running equipment (like CK can LOL.)

With dogs like Xena who know their job the balance between obstacle and handler focus is already there so its not as evident or important if they refuse an external reward when running the course. BUT for a dog that just goes nuts on the equipment and completely blows off the handler then I'd suggest that something else is not quite right in the process and that the handler is going to have to up the ante in the reward stakes to change the behaviour.

[J...]

No that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that the thing I want my dog to develop value for is not agility, or obedience or whatever sport I am training for. Those are just the things I ask them to do so they can earn the rewards I have to offer. The value I build isn't about the sport we are training but my rewards and what I have to offer. Once you have a dog with drive and who values you and the rewards you offer then you can ask them to do x y and z to get drive satisfaction with you.

I know it's not neccessarily a popular opinion especially in sports like agility but it's just the way I see it. I am probably not explaining myself clearly either.

I see it as the difference between the $100,000 job you enjoy and the $100,000 job you do because you get paid to do it. I never want my dogs to value agility equipment more than they value me or my rewards, however I do want them to still have value for what we do because I believe that's the difference between a great performance and an awesome one.