Agility Dogs Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) .. Edited September 6, 2011 by Agility Dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I agree with Joe too Working with my girls that have both been more solid in temperament has been much more enjoyable. Like dancing with a great partner. Working with the soft ones has been character developing for me! Not one of my dogs tugs either, so I must be a super crap trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 K9: Of course if a dog has a high reward history with another prey item it may not tug either, nothing at all to do with nerves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) I agree with Joe too Working with my girls that have both been more solid in temperament has been much more enjoyable. Like dancing with a great partner. Working with the soft ones has been character developing for me! Not one of my dogs tugs either, so I must be a super crap trainer. Where has anyone said that having dogs that don't tug means you are a crap trainer? My dogs don't tug either but that doesnt change the fact tugging is a real science and it takes skill to get it right. No one is arguing that having weak nerves dogs is desirable but that's a moot point if that is the dog you have in front of you. Edited September 6, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandybrush Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 jules i get what you mean about the dancing with a great partner thats exactly how i feel about my raz he is soo much fun to train, that said baby willow is fun to train to, just different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 K9: Of course if a dog has a high reward history with another prey item it may not tug either, nothing at all to do with nerves. Or what if the dog was higher in a different drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Jules no one here is trying to say ALL dogs should be able to tug and have prey drive as their highest drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 JoeK wrote: Who saying your young girl has weak nerve, if the dog she train easy with good focus is doubtful she has weak nerve for the real? I am definitely sure the person saying it knows what they are talking about. She does but when working her desire for work now overrides anything else. I am sure if you look hard enough you will still found subtle differences in her work but touch wood the quality of her ring work has been of a higher quality then some of her training so we are definitely on the right path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me What if you're making too much of this? I'm telling you, shape tug like you would any other behaviour with food rewards. It will reframe the whole thing for both of you. What's the worst that could happen? You don't ever get off the food rewards? You're a good enough trainer that it's not gonna happen. You don't get the enthusiasm you're hoping for because the dog is doing it in exchange for food? I taught both my boys that way and I didn't have that problem. They get into the swing of things in no time at all. Erik was a powerful tugger before and his tugging has returned to that level. He just does it more reliably, now, and switches to food effortlessly. Kivi does it much more reliably and more strongly now than he did before. What's not to like? Do I need to make a before and after video to convince you to try this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Corvues- do your dogs now find the tug equally as rewarding as food? Why wouldnt you just continue to build value for food, if this is already their most desired reward? My dog actually plays the chase and tug game MUCH better than the food game, but I think as a reward she prefers food and would inherently always pick food over a game of tug. We are not talking about playing a game of tug, but talking about using a game of tug as a reward. If you have to train a dog to enjoy a game of tug, is it really ever going to be as rewarding as the primary reinforcer you originally used eg food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Aussielover - Susan Garrett would say you can transfer value so that the other activity becomes just as rewarding as the primary reinforcer. There are dogs who once trained in obedience are rewarded primarily with ring objects - dumbbells, gloves, scent articles, jumping. Its just about transfer of value. If you pair something enough with something the dog values then I do believe you get a value transfer and in some dogs that can be as rewarding as the primary reinforcer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiesha09 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I definately believe you can transfer value from the primary reinforcer to another object. My boy is SOOOO food motivated, he would do anything for it. But he was never toy motivated and tugging wasn't really his thing. I wanted to teach him a retrieve so I shaped it with a tug toy. The value for that particular tug toy is now getting up there with food through a transfer of value. I'm now starting to get him tugging with various other objects in the presence of food (his biggest distraction on earth). Kavik will your dog tug at home in the presence of food? I would try building up the distractions at home first in every room and the backyard and get REALLY good tugging before moving it out of the house. I started doing some tug practice in the garage and have now finally moved to the driveway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 He won't tug yet in the presence of my treat bag at home. He is tugging in the front yard now though I think my progression is going to be: * Tug in Front yard (also work on send, fetch and retrieve, need to work on getting him to bring it back better) * Tug in front yard with empty treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with empty treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with treats in treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with treats in treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with favourite toy on other side of fence * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in treat bag on the ground * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in treat bag on my person * Tug in front yard with favourite toy in my hand * Take the tugging to the park, and also use it as our fetch toy * Take the tugging to training, and also use it as our fetch toy Yes, I think it may take a while please feel free to let me know if you think I missed a step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Corvues- do your dogs now find the tug equally as rewarding as food? I don't know, I haven't asked them to definitively rate them! They don't seem put out if they get tug rather than food and happily pounce on it and tug. Why wouldnt you just continue to build value for food, if this is already their most desired reward? Why would I limit myself to one reinforcer if I don't have to? More reinforcers = greater flexibility. My dog actually plays the chase and tug game MUCH better than the food game, but I think as a reward she prefers food and would inherently always pick food over a game of tug. That's it. Clearly I'm going to have to find some video of early work with Kivi teaching him to tug for food. I think I have some. I kid you not, he would tug a little, I'd mark and present food, and from that moment on he would not even look at the tug. In fact, he avoided it. I just stuck at it and shaped it, starting with marking for just looking at the tug. It honestly did not take long. Maybe 3 very short sessions. It's not about what he prefers, it's about teaching him that tug can be a reward. If your dog already loves the chase and tug game but would prefer to work for food, I am pretty confident this would get her working for tug at least as happily. Although, she is a lab... We are not talking about playing a game of tug, but talking about using a game of tug as a reward. If you have to train a dog to enjoy a game of tug, is it really ever going to be as rewarding as the primary reinforcer you originally used eg food? The value of a reward is anything but static. It changes from moment to moment. I think the only thing holding you back is how you use a reward. As ness and kiesha said, any secondary reinforcer should be at least as rewarding as the primary reinforcer you used to create it. If it's not, the association isn't strong enough and you need to pair it with the primary reinforcer more often. There are a few behaviours Kivi and Erik have been rewarded for so many times that a cue for those behaviours is as rewarding as food because to them it means food. It's a delicate thing, though. The reinforcement rate has to stay high, particularly for Kivi who has a short extinction curve. Tug is a little different, though. IME, once they realise they are getting food for tugging, they throw themselves into it and start enjoying the tug in its own right. You can then start marking for harder tugs and longer tugs and jumping for the tug and so on. I still drop them food quite often, but sometimes it's a surprise for them because they had forgotten all about food while they were having fun tugging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I can come up with a classic example of pairing a secondary reinforcer with a primary reinforcer to the point where the secondary reinforcer is self rewarding and with something a dog wouldn't inherently consider reinforcing. I shaped my young BC to run around a traffic cone as a baby. We progressed the game through to trees and anything that I asked. I moved on to using 2 cones/objects and having her work figure 8s and other assorted variations. At some point in time the behavior came so valuable to the extent where she actually refused a primary reinforcer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Personally I would be hesitant to have a dog who saw anything we did in the ring (like a retrieve or doing obstacles in agility) as more valuable than what I had to offer and reinforcing on it's own. I think it can lead to a lot of other issues IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) Not going to argue with you on that huski - it was more a case of being an example to highlight that you could if you wanted to get adequate value transfer to make something reinforcing that might not be a primary reinforcer i.e. food or tug. I don't care if my dog finds running around traffic cones reinforcing and she will take a tug if offered now but the behavior wouldn't reduce in intensity if it wasn't rewarded and I guess that makes something self rewarding. Maybe that is how they work with the DBs etc in the obedience. I haven't done it, well not deliberately I have had to work the other so that the dog will take a reward, so I don't know. I guess so long as when you still offer another reward and the dog takes it then your fine and can still repair behaviors as necessary. Edited September 7, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Huski, isn't that what stockdog handlers have to face everyday? I understand that it comes with its own special problems. To some degree, maybe those problems exist in agilty for certain dogs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 Regardless Corvus why would you want your dog to value anything more than the rewards you offer? To use agility as an example though I don't know much about agility itself - I see dogs who ignore their handlers in favour of running through obstacles like tunnels and therefore self rewarding on the course. I know some people consider desirable for the dog to value the equipment like that but personally it's not something I'd ever want or train for. I want my dog running the course because it gives her access to my rewards, the same with anything else I train. JMO, but I can't see any benefit to having a dog that finds certain exercises self rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Regardless Corvus why would you want your dog to value anything more than the rewards you offer? I didn't say you would want it. I just said maybe some people have to handle it anyway and do so successfully. In a stockdog you would want it. How else are you going to get them to do what you need them to do? There is so much emphasis put on reward value and so little on methods of controlling reward access and conditioning. I don't think we need to be afraid of our dogs coming to love something more than us. We just have to be sensible about how we manage their access to those things. Having a dog that loves to run agility courses more than they love, say, a game of tug is not necessarily a bad thing in itself. Failing to control their access to equipment so that it's not contingent on the desired behaviour is. In contrast, I find it highy unlikely that I'll ever be able to sufficiently control access to, say, wallabies. So dogs are on leash around wallabies. She says, hopefully. Either that or I get some e-collars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now