Drive Questions

[Kavik]

Nerve is important, but you can't use nerve as an excuse or reason for everything the dog won't do. It is not all the dog's fault. You have to take some responsibility as the trainer. Whether it is the way the exercise like tug is introduced to the dog, the way the handler plays and acts around the dog, any suppression work the handler has done, these things can make a difference. And in the end, you have to work with the dog you have. You can't go on getting more and more dogs because the dog you have isn't working as well as you'd like! You can research and get the best dog you can in terms of drive and nerve, but you may still make mistakes which have to be worked through, which may relate to the dog working n drive.

[huski]

Totally agree Kavik!

[ness]

Kavik has hit the nail on the head - great post. In the end you work with the dog you have and in my experience if you start to label the dog then you are limiting its potential. You can fall into the trap of lowering your expectations to an extent where the dog is never challenged and never given the opportunity to grow. I wouldn't consider I have had to work any harder with my nervy dog in relation to training then I have with my more stable temperament (abet possibly slightly lower drive) dog and I know which one I would rather rely on to perform (and its the young one). She is the more enjoyable dog to work and train.

Her focus level would outshine my older one hands down.

[Red Fox]

Awww, sorry SK. I didn't mean to offend you. Maybe the OP ought to decide if it's relevant to the topic or not.

Just to make it clear, I'm opinionated but that doesn't make it personal. Except for Joe, who continues to butcher things I find beautifully, wonderfully complex and spend a lot of time admiring. ;)

You didn't offend me Corvus. However it does bother me when threads like this turn into an argument of right and wrong. In the OPs case there is only one person with the "right" answers for her and that is the person who wrote the program.

[Lablover]

Maybe the "discussions" are due to trainer V scientist. Never the twain shall meet?

It's all good, as long as the dogs are leading a good life.

[PAX]

I totally agree with getting the best out of the dog you have, most of us aren't breeders. With developing drive and desire for our reward/game, we can make our dogs better and more trainable.

I am lucky enough to own three very different dogs, different breeds. One is super high drive, one high drive but weak nerved, and one middle of the road cruisy dog. I would pick the high drive dog any day, he makes it so easy, anyone that has met him would agree I'm sure.

But I agree with what JoeK is saying, if the dogs were bred better we wouldn't have these issues, they could and should cope in any situation. Also the few people that do battle on and get the dogs titled make the pedigree look good when that may not be acheivable for most people.

Anyway, building drive/ value for the game can help any dog:) We all just want the best out of the dog we love.:D

[dandybrush]

PAX it seems i have a high drive dog and a low drive dog

does the dog have to have drive do we think? to excel in the chosen field? are there any fields or activities where drive doesnt matter? just curious is all

[PAX]

I hope you haven't asked that question with sarcasm, I hope I expressed that any dog can be better with drive training. Dogs do what works for them, whether that is a reward or avoiding a correction.

I believe if you don't want to use drive your only other option is using adversives to get what you want, I guess it depends on what you think is acceptable. I do not want to use corrections for my dogs to play my silly obedience game, i want to pay them well for my game by offering the best fun for them.

Of course this varys with often self rewarding work like herding and sometimes agility or retreiving..

[huski]

This is how I see it:

To me the very essence of training in drive is creating a reward experience for your dog. No matter genetics of the dog we have in front of us, why wouldn't we want to increase their value for the rewards we offer and make the reward experience something they value above anything else?

[gsdog2]

This is how I see it:

To me the very essence of training in drive is creating a reward experience for your dog. No matter genetics of the dog we have in front of us, why wouldn't we want to increase their value for the rewards we offer and make the reward experience something they value above anything else?

well said Huski!

Isn't creating the right reward experience what training is all about? No matter what the breed (or their nerves) there is a reward they will switch on for - it's a matter of FINDING the right reward and then building on it isn't it?

Edited September 6, 2011 by gsdog2

[Kavik]

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me

I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult.

I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

[huski]

Isn't creating the right reward experience what training is all about? No matter what the breed (or their nerves) there is a reward they will switch on for - it's a matter of FINDING the right reward and then building on it isn't it?

Absolutely IMO! At the end of the day when you only have the dog in front of you to work with, do what you can to make training awesome for that dog.

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me

I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult.

I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

Kavik at the risk of sounding like K9 Pro ;) one thing I've learnt about tugging especially is that you can't want your dog to tug more than your dog wants to tug!

Also as someone who suffers BAD nerves in the ring, the other thing I've been focusing on rather than trying to change myself is triggering my dog as I would in the ring (i.e. saying a quiet and controlled 'ready' with little body language like I know I will say it at the start post, rather than a big excited "READY?" with lots of excited body language like I do in training).

Edited September 6, 2011 by huski

[The Spotted Devil]

Kavik, that is why I started by hiding the tug in my training bag - if he didn't make an effort to grab it I didn't shove it in his face and just used food that session. Looking back I'm astounded at how feral he can be with the tug now Last night at training I tugged before each agility run and rewarded with food at the end ie dropping the intermediate step of food before the start line. Might even try it at our next trial.

[Kavik]

Isn't creating the right reward experience what training is all about? No matter what the breed (or their nerves) there is a reward they will switch on for - it's a matter of FINDING the right reward and then building on it isn't it?

Absolutely IMO! At the end of the day when you only have the dog in front of you to work with, do what you can to make training awesome for that dog.

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me

I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult.

I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

Kavik at the risk of sounding like K9 Pro ;) one thing I've learnt about tugging especially is that you can't want your dog to tug more than your dog wants to tug!

Also as someone who suffers BAD nerves in the ring, the other thing I've been focusing on rather than trying to change myself is triggering my dog as I would in the ring (i.e. saying a quiet and controlled 'ready' with little body language like I know I will say it at the start post, rather than a big excited "READY?" with lots of excited body language like I do in training).

Yeah I know, silly handler

I think I can make progress by using the ball on a string as I am more confident he will like it out and about and I'm sure my confidence in whether he will play with it is a big part of it as it affects how I play with him.

The question is can I be disciplined enough regarding his favourite toy to move enough value to another toy.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Kavik

[JoeK]

Nerve is important, but you can't use nerve as an excuse or reason for everything the dog won't do. It is not all the dog's fault. You have to take some responsibility as the trainer. Whether it is the way the exercise like tug is introduced to the dog, the way the handler plays and acts around the dog, any suppression work the handler has done, these things can make a difference. And in the end, you have to work with the dog you have. You can't go on getting more and more dogs because the dog you have isn't working as well as you'd like! You can research and get the best dog you can in terms of drive and nerve, but you may still make mistakes which have to be worked through, which may relate to the dog working n drive.

Using drive (such as tug which everyone in sports tries to utilise) is a more complicated process than I originally thought it would be. I thought - cool, get a dog with good drive, start tugging when a puppy, and I should have a nice tugging dog! Right? Unfortunately for some people no. It turns out getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive. A lot has to do with how you approach it, how you play the game with them, and how you can get them to do it in the face of other distractions including other rewards (either other rewards you carry such as food or other toys, and external or environmental rewards). This is where I am having problems. My dog has plenty of drive, and likes to tug in the comfortable environment of the yard. But outside the yard, he won't tug. He prefers other rewards I carry at that time, and sometimes (like at trials at the moment ) is also seeking out external environmental rewards rather than work with me.

Kavik please, I copy above what you say, yes? You say getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive.

What you say is correct I am agreeing happens with dogs of weak nerve. Good nerve is not easy to find becuase unless the breeders work on the nerve structuring in their lines for the best, majority people dont get the good nerve in their dog. What my point is, train a dog with good proper nerve and see the difference. The dogs of good nerve makes no difference where they be training and they engaging in games the same in the backyard as in the main street of the town. You dont have to be changing training tecknics for different environmnet with the good nerve.

What you say above Kavik I answer what you experience wont happen if the dog you training has good nerve. The reason the dog doesnt play the same in distraction and strange enviroments is becuase the dog is stressed, is not becuase you train the dog wrong when hes not stressed an works properly.

Joe

Edited September 6, 2011 by JoeK

[JoeK]

Kavik has hit the nail on the head - great post. In the end you work with the dog you have and in my experience if you start to label the dog then you are limiting its potential. You can fall into the trap of lowering your expectations to an extent where the dog is never challenged and never given the opportunity to grow. I wouldn't consider I have had to work any harder with my nervy dog in relation to training then I have with my more stable temperament (abet possibly slightly lower drive) dog and I know which one I would rather rely on to perform (and its the young one). She is the more enjoyable dog to work and train.

Her focus level would outshine my older one hands down.

Who saying your young girl has weak nerve, if the dog she train easy with good focus is doubtful she has weak nerve for the real? Many people cant indentify the nerve anyway and many times I have been seeing fear biters called tough dogs and real tough stable dogs called weak nerved, so it depends who make the diagnosing on the dogs nerve if they know what nerve is?

Joe

[JoeK]

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me

I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult.

I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

Ok, what you do is little tug in the yard with the leash on the dog. Then take him out the front and try a little tug then walk down the street and try a little tug and keep trying little tug every 10 minutes as you walking along. If the dog wont tug, put it away and enjoy happy walk then the next day do the same thing. The dog will be learning the tug game away from the yard and in the end he should tug most of time. If you be pressuring him to tug or show him stress from you becuase he wont tug will make it worse and ,my opinion is little bit of tug and let him win it, let it go and let him have it then lots of praising when he win.

Joe

[dandybrush]

PAX - sorry no that wasnt sarcasm

i was just trying to think if i need to encourage drive in my driveless girl

also is it possible im confusing drive with speed? my girl will focus and work for/with me, not off leash though yet im used to my boy who does everything fast and works on/off leash awesomely

raz will go full pelt after a toy, my girl will lope/trot and then maybe bring it back or go off sniffing...maybe i just havent found "the" toy that she will drive for...or maybe she doesnt care about toys...

[Kavik]

I think my problem is simple but the slution more difficult as it requires changing me

I think I want the tugging too much and act too desperate and not fun enough When we are in the yard and I am comfortable and confident he will tug, he is fine and we have fun, but when we are out and I am unsure whether he will tug, I am more self conscious about it and he won't play. Changing my emotions and how I interact and play the game is going to be difficult.

I am going to try to make it easier by aiming for tugging on a ball on a string (starting wiyh one that squeaks which he likes) rather than a tug toy

Ok, what you do is little tug in the yard with the leash on the dog. Then take him out the front and try a little tug then walk down the street and try a little tug and keep trying little tug every 10 minutes as you walking along. If the dog wont tug, put it away and enjoy happy walk then the next day do the same thing. The dog will be learning the tug game away from the yard and in the end he should tug most of time. If you be pressuring him to tug or show him stress from you becuase he wont tug will make it worse and ,my opinion is little bit of tug and let him win it, let it go and let him have it then lots of praising when he win.

Joe

Yes you see the bolded bit about not showing how I feel about it is the part I am having problems with changing. That is all about me, not about the dog, and something I have to change. Unfortunately knowing that and doing it is not the same

[huski]

What you say above Kavik I answer what you experience wont happen if the dog you training has good nerve. The reason the dog doesnt play the same in distraction and strange enviroments is becuase the dog is stressed, is not becuase you train the dog wrong when hes not stressed an works properly.

Joe that's a load of crap. I've seen people stuff up tugging with a high drive, solid nerved dog simply because their handling sucks. Don't down play the importance of the handler's skill in training their dog.