Drive Questions

[aussielover]

What is the difference between play and prey drive?

Is there a difference between food drive and food obsession?

Can a dog be low drive but high energy?

Can you change a dogs drive levelin either direction ie up or down ?

How does work ethic relate to drive?

Can you ruin a dogs drive?

Going off training sessions I would probably say my dog is low/medium drive for both food and prey.

But if you see her do a trial (well we've only done practice ones but still a full course) you might say she has more energy/drive

Additionally she is food obsessed and will offer an infinite number of attempts and behaviours just to get a crumb of a muffin or a piece of dry kibble.

She loves chasing balls, birds and rabbits (but is scared of cats).

She enjoys playing tug and tugs hard around 75% of the time (you guessed it- in training she doesn't!)

She loves running around at the dog park and beach. Today she ran full pelt from one beach to another (I'd say at least 500 meters) over a series of rocks and ramps (rather like agility lol) several times between me and my mum calling her. This was after swimming for and running for a ball for over an hour.

I just can't seem to focus this into training!

I'm wondering if its because she has a poor work ethic, or is stressed or has play drive, not prey?

Or if she is a low drive dog with higher energy levels.

Or if I have ruined her drive.... She was a full on puppy, really outgoing, energetic, inquisitive, naughty etc but was only rewarded for calm behaviour and not encouraged to tug or chase things. I have only recently started playing tug and ball with her.

Just starting a drive training program so hopefully that will help!

- interestingly although she normally WON'T give up to trying to get food, she doesn't actually seem to want to chase it- not sure if this is manners (we have never trained or encouraged this sort of behaviour before and to be honest when she was a puppy if she were to grab, jump up to get or chase down food she would have been corrected).

Edited September 4, 2011 by aussielover

[corvus]

I'm going to piss everyone off by replying!

What is the difference between play and prey drive?

According to Jaak Panksepp of affective neuroscience fame, brain pathways. Play has its own mode and prey comes under SEEK (foraging) or RAGE (aggression) depending on the circumstances. According to some trainers, nothing. According to other trainers, play doesn't involve any of the behaviours in a predatory sequence whereas prey does. This is silly because play is actually defined by its inclusion of behaviours from all aspects of life jumbled together out of sequence. That might be a hint right there.

Is there a difference between food drive and food obsession?

I don't actually think there is any such thing as food drive. *bombshell* According to Panksepp there are no specific pathways for rewards. Food comes under SEEK. If you must, though, yes and no. Obsession IMO can originate in drive, but it can also be fostered by handling and reward schedule. I've been watching dogs become obsessed with my electronic dog trainer. It's not always the food obsessed ones that do, but it usually is.

Can a dog be low drive but high energy?

I think it's useful here to differentiate between drive, as in the willingness to persist with an activity for a long time through a lot of different obstacles and barriers, and arousal, which corresponds to physical activity. I recently worked with a dog that flitted from stimulus to stimulus in the environment and never managed to focus on much at all for more than 30 seconds. With the possible exception of play.

Can you change a dogs drive levelin either direction ie up or down ?

That's debatable. If we're using the definition of drive from the previous question, people I have asked say you can encourage it when the dog is young and get a bit more, but ultimately you have to work with what you've got.

How does work ethic relate to drive?

If we go on the definition of drive from above, the dog will persist with activities even under pressure and around difficult obstacles and barriers. They look for that in working dog prospects.

Can you ruin a dogs drive?

You can mess with its expression. Don't know if you can ruin it. Depends on what you mean by ruin and what you mean by drive.

But if you see her do a trial (well we've only done practice ones but still a full course) you might say she has more energy/drive.

Additionally she is food obsessed and will offer an infinite number of attempts and behaviours just to get a crumb of a muffin or a piece of dry kibble.

She loves chasing balls, birds and rabbits (but is scared of cats).

She enjoys playing tug and tugs hard around 75% of the time (you guessed it- in training she doesn't!)

She loves running around at the dog park and beach. Today she ran full pelt from one beach to another (I'd say at least 500 meters) over a series of rocks and ramps (rather like agility lol) several times between me and my mum calling her. This was after swimming for and running for a ball for over an hour.

My guess is you are talking about arousal.

Chasing doesn't say much about the type of drive IMO. Erik will chase just about anything that moves, but he gives up on it the moment it stops most of the time. It's a game to him. Kivi chases a prey animal seriously sometimes and it looks completely different.

Play is suppressed by just about every other emotional state!

I just can't seem to focus this into training!

I'm wondering if its because she has a poor work ethic, or is stressed or has play drive, not prey?

Or if I have ruined her drive.... She was a full on puppy, really outgoing, energetic, inquisitive, naughty etc but was only rewarded for calm behaviour and not encouraged to tug or chase things. I have only recently started playing tug and ball with her.

Or perhaps she just needs more conditioning. I killed Erik's tugging quite profoundly at one point through conditioning. It took a few months to get it back, but he's back to leaping at any tug toy I wave at him again, now. I taught Kivi to tug with food and a marker. He is a better tugger now than he was as a puppy. I thought I wouldn't get the vigour by teaching it like a behaviour, but happily, I was wrong.

Just starting a drive training program so hopefully that will help!

- interestingly although she normally WON'T give up to trying to get food, she doesn't actually seem to want to chase it- not sure if this is manners (we have never trained or encouraged this sort of behaviour before and to be honest when she was a puppy if she were to grab, jump up to get or chase down food she would have been corrected).

Dogs sometimes need to be taught that food and chase games are compatible. Particularly if they chase as a game. The food kills their play mood. I got over it with both Kivi and Erik by shaping tug with food.

[aussielover]

Don't want to upset you corvus as I know you have a pet hare but... Mindy kills rabbits; or at least the sick ones she manages to catch

So she is pretty serious about it.

I have heard that some people cosider food drive to be a type of prey drive, so I agree it may not actually exist as a completely separate drive, but be an expression of prey drive- if that makes sense? Is that what you were getting at?

By ruin a drive- i guess I mean supress it to the point where it would be impossible or at least very difficult to utilise again.

Your electronic dog trainer sounds interesting!

Thanks for responding, always interesting to hear peoples opinions Although I have to admit it sometimes hurts my brain to interpret your technical speak, all these different "trainer speak" terms confuse me

[Vickie]

I think we, as pet owners training for dog sports, are better looking at these questions in a simple and practical sense, if we need to look at them at all. We tend to want to use labels and definitions that often serve no purpose other than to complicate what we need to know to go forward with our goals. Fwiw, here are my answers as a trainer/competitor who aspires to improve.

What is the difference between play and prey drive?

Who cares? So long as I can get my dog to value the reward experience with me more than anything else, the label of the drive is irrelevant.

Is there a difference between food drive and food obsession?

again, not a question I need to waste time thinking about in order to train my dog well.

Can a dog be low drive but high energy?

Same as above

Can you change a dogs drive levelin either direction ie up or down ?

I hope so, because I am always seeking to increase my dogs drive to value my reward.

How does work ethic relate to drive?

Not an important question I need to answer to achieve my goals

Can you ruin a dogs drive?

I am sure you can diminish it, but I am finding drive (any type we use for training) can be connected to the situation. Take a dog that is not responding well to one person with one toy in one place. Changing any or all of these variables can change the outcome.

Just starting a drive training program so hopefully that will help!

Maybe once you get going with the program, the answers to the above will become apparent. If you're like me, you may find you are too focussed on what you need to do to be bothered asking them anymore.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I will address what I think is the important part of your post.

Using drive (such as tug which everyone in sports tries to utilise) is a more complicated process than I originally thought it would be. I thought - cool, get a dog with good drive, start tugging when a puppy, and I should have a nice tugging dog! Right? Unfortunately for some people no. It turns out getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive. A lot has to do with how you approach it, how you play the game with them, and how you can get them to do it in the face of other distractions including other rewards (either other rewards you carry such as food or other toys, and external or environmental rewards). This is where I am having problems. My dog has plenty of drive, and likes to tug in the comfortable environment of the yard. But outside the yard, he won't tug. He prefers other rewards I carry at that time, and sometimes (like at trials at the moment ) is also seeking out external environmental rewards rather than work with me.

It is something I am going to address now! Have been trying to work on it for ages, but it has come to a head recently so I will be getting some help to work through it. While it is frustrating as we were doing so well and now have to go back to some basics, at least it will mean I will know how to approach the issue properly for my next dog and so can get the issue sorted when the dog is much younger (and the important thing I have learned is that many people go through this - Susan Garrett calls them don't wanna don't hafta moments).

ETA: I think this is probably my biggest hurdle in working with my dogs (all of them). Including poor Diesel who I know has the ability in there somewhere. If I can get help to work through this, and figure out how to do it with other dogs than I can see my relationship with them will improve so much and our performance will reflect that.

Edited September 4, 2011 by Kavik

[dandybrush]

yes im struggling to find drive in my baby girl. my boy loves to tug and work for me, he drives to do anything i ask of him, he does everything at 100%

my girl will stroll after a toy i throw, tug a bit then give up, she is food motivated, my boy loves the "gotchya bum" game that gives him zoomies, i try to play with my girl and she rolls over

i've never had to think about building drive before, and im a bit at a loss as to how

[wuffles]

Interesting questions I don't know the anwers but I can relay observations about my own two dogs just to highlight the differences between dogs!

My older boy is very calm and laidback but he has very high prey drive for actual small fluffy things (cats, rabbits, foxes, etc). He goes a bit bonkers when he sees a duck from 50m away, yet magpies can wander around a metre away from him and he barely lifts an eyelid. He is not interested in toys or tugging, at all. If I throw a toy, he doesn't even look at it. The only tug toy he has found interesting is one with actual bunny fur woven into it, and even then he wouldn't tug on it... just wanted to rip the fur out He came to us as a rescue at 3 years old so I can't say whether something in his past may have diminished his prey drive for toys/tug, or whether it is something more complex. He likes food but environmental rewards are more enticing for him (sniffing, exploring).

My younger girl is high energy and would die for one piece of kibble. She is very food motivated (but we do keep her portions down to keep her lean so I don't know if this would lessen if she got more). She likes toys and will tug but I haven't been able to get too much out of her in that regard as food will always triumph. I taught her a better tug using food and a clicker but I can see that it's not particularly enjoyable for her... she is obviously doing it just to get the food at the end. She does love a flirt pole and does better tugging with real sheepskin or rabbit fur. I started out trying to use toys as a reward in agility but gave up (for now). I get quite good results with food, although food is obviously not as versatile as toys I do use food chasing and throwing and she LOVES it. Overall I'd say she is quite driven but not crazily so, she gives me a lot of enthusiasm for both obedience and agility.

[aussielover]

Wuffles- Satch sounds like such a character!

I'm feeling a litte frustrated atm, although Mindy is far from difficult, she is variable and unpredictable in how well she will respond to training.

Also for a dog food obsessed enough to break into a 6kg bag of dog food and scoff it, vomit and then eat it again she is proving rather hard to motivate to chase a piece of cabanossi.

I also feel like I don't know how to reward her properly- at training if I offer a toy she'll want food, but then if I offer food, she'll bring me a toy and want to tug. Very confusing.

Anyway we are working on the drive program at the moment- she improved a little today so I am happy with that. I think I'm just going to focus on the program only at the moment (and give all other traininhg a rest) and she how she goes and then re evaulate our suitability for competition.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think my Dally fits the "high energy, low drive" description really well - someone wrote about it on the Clean Run list and I was just nodding my head, ticking the boxes.

It does take time, patience and finding out what works for your dog. Ziggy would not even LOOK at a tug toy at home let alone at training but at Saturday's agility trial I had food in one hand and tugging like mad with him with the other. And that was just before his 7th run of the day when he was quite whacked. Be careful about putting too much pressure on to tug - I started by producing a very tempting sheepskin tug toy when I arrived home after a week away. Zig was so excited to see me and I channelled that energy into tugging. I never offer him the tug toy - when I was moving towards tugging at training I would hide the toy in my training bag (where the food was) and make a great play about trying to hide it from him. When he kept persisting and stole the toy out of the bag I would grab the other end, play tug, give and jackpot with food. It was a long time before I used tug at a trial and even then it was only for the first 2 runs of the day then I would switch to food. Now I use both - tug when the dog before us is in the ring, give and heel to the start line with a piece of food before we enter the ring. Eventually I'd like to drop the food before we walk in the ring and extend it to the end of the run but am only doing that in training at the moment.

Oh, and he was COMPLETELY disinterested in food to begin with so he had to work for every scrap of food that he ate which made it much more valuable. Now I deliver food in lots of different ways - in fact, running to a bait plate was how I cured his phobia of the seesaw!

[dandybrush]

love your dogs wuffles

raz loves to tug! it wins out over food, i have a feeling food will win over toys for my girl willow im not fussed i will only do what she enjoys, i wont force her into agility if she doesnt appear to enjoy herself raz i know loves it!! i love his speed and his willing to work with/for me, just have to do a bit more training on the weaves and contacts and following my hands but we'll get there

[corvus]

Don't want to upset you corvus as I know you have a pet hare but... Mindy kills rabbits; or at least the sick ones she manages to catch

So she is pretty serious about it.

Not anymore. He died late last week just shy of seven years old. Still kinda coming to terms with it.

At any rate, it's not upsetting for a dog to kill prey animals. They are predators somewhere in there after all. You saw Kivi flip out over the rats at the Million Paws Walk. He's low energy, but happy to kill small rodents if he gets the chance. I know a dog that is very lazy most of the time, but will stand in the hated rain for two days waiting for a rat to come out of a wood pile, and he also tore a hole in the garage wall trying to get to a trapped possum. He's only a 10kg dog, so it's no small feat. His drive is high, but his energy level is low. He does not chase moving objects unless they are alive as a general rule.

I have heard that some people cosider food drive to be a type of prey drive, so I agree it may not actually exist as a completely separate drive, but be an expression of prey drive- if that makes sense? Is that what you were getting at?

Kind of. Being motivated enough to look for food is something that's usually switched on by hunger. In wild animals if they are predators, that is all together likely to involve hunting. Dogs are opportunistic and don't especially need to be hungry to take advantage of an opportunity that presents itself, whether that be looking for scraps or chasing and killing something. The way that we use food in training animals, in particular dogs because they are so opportunistic, is always going to have some throwback to foraging for food, but we can create a lot of excitement and arousal for it in the way we reward, how often, and how we mark the event, even. There are dogs that don't care what the reward is, they are just really excited by opportunities to earn them. I would be surprised if this was not a dopamine sensitivity of some sort. There are probably studies that show it. Lots of recent work on different dopamine receptors and how emotionally reactive individuals are.

By ruin a drive- i guess I mean supress it to the point where it would be impossible or at least very difficult to utilise again.

I know a dog who won't play around most people because he's too scared he'll get yelled at. I bet he's got acres of drive in there somewhere, but he is immensely inhibited. Maybe a good trainer could coax it back to the fore, maybe not. We'll never know.

Your electronic dog trainer sounds interesting!

I love watching it teach dogs. :D They all do something different. Some of them just can't get enough of it, others could not care less about it. They all go through the program a little differently. Most try to figure out how it works by watching me at first. Take the human element out of training and all these dogs just want to put it back in again!

[Red Fox]

These links may help you in regards to understanding different drives;

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=79

http://felixho.be/en/sacraalHart/index.html

My understanding is;

What is the difference between play and prey drive?

Prey drive is more focussed, serious and intent than play drive.

*play and prey are explained in the first link above.

Is there a difference between food drive and food obsession?

I would think that the difference between obsession and drive is the difference between wanting the food and determination to get the food.

Can a dog be low drive but high energy?

Yes.

Can you change a dogs drive level in either direction ie up or down ?

I think you can build or suppress what is naturally there, but not "change" it.

How does work ethic relate to drive?

If you can channel focus through drive you can build a better work ethic in your dog.

Can you ruin a dogs drive?

You can suppress it, but I don't think you can ever diminish it completely.

[JoeK]

I will address what I think is the important part of your post.

Using drive (such as tug which everyone in sports tries to utilise) is a more complicated process than I originally thought it would be. I thought - cool, get a dog with good drive, start tugging when a puppy, and I should have a nice tugging dog! Right? Unfortunately for some people no. It turns out getting them to engage in tug (or other game) in all environments and distractions is not as easy as them simply having a lot of drive. A lot has to do with how you approach it, how you play the game with them, and how you can get them to do it in the face of other distractions including other rewards (either other rewards you carry such as food or other toys, and external or environmental rewards). This is where I am having problems. My dog has plenty of drive, and likes to tug in the comfortable environment of the yard. But outside the yard, he won't tug. He prefers other rewards I carry at that time, and sometimes (like at trials at the moment ) is also seeking out external environmental rewards rather than work with me.

It is something I am going to address now! Have been trying to work on it for ages, but it has come to a head recently so I will be getting some help to work through it. While it is frustrating as we were doing so well and now have to go back to some basics, at least it will mean I will know how to approach the issue properly for my next dog and so can get the issue sorted when the dog is much younger (and the important thing I have learned is that many people go through this - Susan Garrett calls them don't wanna don't hafta moments).

ETA: I think this is probably my biggest hurdle in working with my dogs (all of them). Including poor Diesel who I know has the ability in there somewhere. If I can get help to work through this, and figure out how to do it with other dogs than I can see my relationship with them will improve so much and our performance will reflect that.

This is common problem for dogs weak on the nerve not to be tugging in new invironment becuase they feeling uneasy not relaxed. Is not the training problem for doing things wrong, is the wrong dog for the job,yes!!. Dog has to have drive and nerve and when you get the right combination of this the dog will tug the same on the backyard as he does in the main street of town, makes no difference where he is.

Joe

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh what a dull world it would be if we all had the 'right' dog for the job

[ness]

You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer .

In the end I would have said its not about having the dog "tug" its about having the dog work at a level your happy with - enthusiastically, full of focus for the task at hand and giving you their all. Funny there are still a few situations my young dog will not tug in (I can count them on one hand but none the less still there) yet she can still work in those environments and give me 100% effort.

Edited September 5, 2011 by ness

[The Spotted Devil]

You can work through a dog with a weak nerve and get them playing the same everywhere regardless - I know you can I have done so and have the results to prove it ;). And yep I was told she was the wrong dog for the job - just don't take no for an answer .

Dunno, ness - perhaps we should just relegate our unsuitable dogs to the backyard

And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D

[JulesP]

And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D

And he does that with an impressive level of drive

[ness]

TSD but I was told I should - when Kenz was 16 weeks old - hmm so the 191 the other weekend was a figment of my imagination since she was never going to make it as an obedience dog .

And for the record she was sitting on a 190 at another trial back in April (before her extended injury break) and wasn't interested in her tug either before we went into the ring or after we came out but I wouldn't say she was going through the motions in the ring she was pushy, flashy and certainly "in drive".

ETA. Can you honestly imagine Kenz relegated to a backyard!!!!!!!! - eeek.

Edited September 5, 2011 by ness

[The Spotted Devil]

And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D

And he does that with an impressive level of drive

Doesn't he just

Zig in the backyard would be a right royal PITA. Working his Spotted heart out day after day and I'd almost call him bearable ;)

[dandybrush]

And just because a dog won't tug doesn't mean they're "weak nerved". It's just that my Dalmatian would rather have been pi$$ing on a tree :D

And he does that with an impressive level of drive

Doesn't he just

Zig in the backyard would be a right royal PITA. Working his Spotted heart out day after day and I'd almost call him bearable ;)

my boy is exactly the same, i let him off leash and he c**ks on everything!! i always worry he will stop to pee in the agility ring...so far in a comp it hasnt happened....but i've only been in one comp