Puppy Crazy At Meal Times

[Mason_Gibbs]

Food drive is good but i think what Gibbs was doing is actually having a tantrum for food, throwing himself at my legs and howling - he had no idea that to get food he has to work for it( he knows it now!!!) he is just a baby with heaps to learn, i think he is an awesome addition to our family and maybe he will make it to the obedience ring or compete in retrieving trial i guess time will tell

[huski]

Food drive is good but i think what Gibbs was doing is actually having a tantrum for food, throwing himself at my legs and howling - he had no idea that to get food he has to work for it( he knows it now!!!) he is just a baby with heaps to learn, i think he is an awesome addition to our family and maybe he will make it to the obedience ring or compete in retrieving trial i guess time will tell

What is drive if not the dog's desire for the reward?? Just playing devil's advocate ;) we all have different ways of training things, glad you are enjoying your new pup!

Edited September 10, 2011 by huski

[aussielover]

So would you use TOT with a new puppy huski?

[huski]

So would you use TOT with a new puppy huski?

I would because the way TOT is designed keeps the dog in drive.

But I wouldn't set out to reward a puppy for being calm around food or for being "well mannered" and not trying to snatch food/a toy from me or jump around when I have food/a toy. I won't ever try to inhibit a puppy from showing drive with me, "manners" and self control can be put in quickly once they've learnt how the game works (though at the same time, when I release my dogs to a reward, most "manners" can fly out the window once I give the ok and they can let go and enjoy the reward experience with me)

I'm not saying it's for everyone, just how I'll be doing it with my new pup. I'll be more than happy to share my experience raising a pup this way when I do it!

Edited September 10, 2011 by huski

[RallyValley]

What is wrong for rewarding the pup for sitting and holding that position? How would you train stays and keep a dog in drive then? (Genuinely curious, still don't really get 'drive')

[huski]

What is wrong for rewarding the pup for sitting and holding that position? How would you train stays and keep a dog in drive then? (Genuinely curious, still don't really get 'drive')

As a general rule I don't reward in position anyway. Easier to demonstrate IRL than try to explain it online but it's all about how you use the reward and the experience of getting the reward for the dog. Always rewarding the dog for being still and calm will mean it's harder to teach the dog that chasing food or tugging and being in a highly excitable and aroused state is what will gain them the reward.

Now this will probably sound crazy, but I actually WANT my dogs to break stays in training. I want to get them to the point where they are so keen for the reward, value it and want it so much, that they simply cannot wait for it and break. I want them sitting there full of anticipation and excitement. It's then easy for me to give them a NRM for breaking and teach them not to do it but the end result is a dog that is highly focused in stays and has great durability (unlikely to break around distractions because all it can focus on or think about is getting the reward). Daisy used to break her stays all the time from boredom, she'd self reward immediately by scenting on the ground (and your nose is very close to the ground when you are scent hound in a down stay!) once I retrained stays above in drive it was not a problem again.

Again it's not for everyone but it's how I'd do it

Edited September 10, 2011 by huski

[aussielover]

Thats what I thought Huski- that the TOT keeps them in drive, thanks for clarifying

It is amazing the difference that rewarding calm behavoiurs can make to a dog expressing its drive.

for example- I always trained my dog to be really calm and quiet using food and never accepted her jumping up to grab food, or even grab food in general, she was trained to take food slowly (well as slow as possible for a lab lol)and gently.

In contrast I never inhibited her from chasing toys, tugging, jumping up to grab them (naughty i know but i found it funny tbh).

Now i want to train in drive- i have a primarily food motivated dog (so i chose food drive), who is difficult for me to get into drive using food.

In contrast, she sows no such inhibition with toys or tugs as i never really discouraged "bad" behaviour like jumping up, lunging at, grabbing etc these things, in fact i actually encouraged it.

I actually have had to teach her to chase food by first getting her to chase a toy or tug and the immediately after getting her to do the same with food.

We are getting there though

Edited September 10, 2011 by aussielover

[Tapua]

What is wrong for rewarding the pup for sitting and holding that position? How would you train stays and keep a dog in drive then? (Genuinely curious, still don't really get 'drive')

As a general rule I don't reward in position anyway. Easier to demonstrate IRL than try to explain it online but it's all about how you use the reward and the experience of getting the reward for the dog. Always rewarding the dog for being still and calm will mean it's harder to teach the dog that chasing food or tugging and being in a highly excitable and aroused state is what will gain them the reward.

Now this will probably sound crazy, but I actually WANT my dogs to break stays in training. I want to get them to the point where they are so keen for the reward, value it and want it so much, that they simply cannot wait for it and break. I want them sitting there full of anticipation and excitement. It's then easy for me to give them a NRM for breaking and teach them not to do it but the end result is a dog that is highly focused in stays and has great durability (unlikely to break around distractions because all it can focus on or think about is getting the reward). Daisy used to break her stays all the time from boredom, she'd self reward immediately by scenting on the ground (and your nose is very close to the ground when you are scent hound in a down stay!) once I retrained stays above in drive it was not a problem again.

Again it's not for everyone but it's how I'd do it

OK Ive got where you are coming from - however IMO I am the stimuli which triggers the cue for the high excited drive I cultivate in my dogs for hunting - however I also have a need to have an off button - where they will return to being sensible.

When my husband and I go into the top block to 'play' my dogs instantly cued that something is on. They bark, yelp and are demanding ironicaly they are motivated to obey me for the reward of the tug toy or whatever we use. We also use the cue to work to triggr them to do directed searching and on command they will seek high and low to find an item they know we have hidden.

My yellow 5 month old and black 12 month old hunting for the hidden item on the new puppy training gym

The same dogs finding it within seconds

However at the command - 'thats enough' everyone settles down.

IMO the cue is MY behaviour which switches on our dogs drive - whilst the toy is an added incentive our focused interaction is what motivates. When in drive I will direct the dogs to search for items and they will bust a boiler hunting in tunnels, on the wood pile under the house for whatever item we have hidden. Once found ( which rarely takes more than a few second) game over - loads of praise and play. However all that activity may take on a few minute - I am not in favour of issolation training - so there has to be an off button because my dogs live with me and they must settle when I say so.

Rewarding calm behaviour is of course a pet/companion low drive activity - its important for the dogs to learn the difference or you end up with a high wired nut who can be unriable when it matters... IMO.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Tapua

[huski]

Tapua, IMO you can train an off switch without compromising drive In fact the pups I know that have been raised to work in drive and have "bad manners" around the handler actually chill out really easily outside of training because they get so much satisfaction when they are working. I also think crate training is crucial with puppies!

I train an 'on switch' by teaching a trigger word to get my dogs in drive.

Edited September 10, 2011 by huski

[Tapua]

Tapua, IMO you can train an off switch without compromising drive In fact the pups I know that have been raised to work in drive and have "bad manners" around the handler actually chill out really easily outside of training because they get so much satisfaction when they are working. I also think crate training is crucial with puppies!

I train an 'on switch' by teaching a trigger word to get my dogs in drive.

OK I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways And sorry Mason - I think we have gone way off on another tangent with this discussion :D

Edited September 10, 2011 by Tapua

[Mason_Gibbs]

No hassles its interesting.

[The Spotted Devil]

Congratulations on your new puppy mason_gibbs :D

There are so many ways you can train. Personally, with a high energy youngster I head down the path of self-control, with emphasis on making it the puppy's choice. I don't supress over the top behaviour (because it's a wonderful tool to train with!) but I allow the dog to learn how to earn the rewards with as little interference from me. So far I have found it to work very well - from a rock solid steady dog for retrieving (the ultimate reward!!!) to the beginnings of start line stays for agility to formal recalls and stays for obedience. I've never trained Em on lead either so it really does become her choice - however, I do set her up to succeed. I did have to restrain her slightly when she first started retrieving birdies though as she was off her tree with excitement and I wanted to capture that as it's a huge step up from dummies. I think Susan Garrett encapsulates some of the approaches I use but I don't take it to her extreme. I'm not a purist. If it works it works. That way I don't end up suffering from paralysis by analysis ;) One thing I really focus on is very specific "pictures" for the dog when they are training - it enables me to train for multiple disciplines simultaneously and without confusion. So far anyway

ETA: Em doesn't have meal time technically - she receives food for training, gets a couple of Kongs of dry food in her crate when I go out. If necessary I'll give her another couple of Kongs in the evening but it doesn't take much to do some high reward training inside and go through half a cup of dry food. She ate out of a bowl for her first week whilst she settled in and during teething when I softened the food. Even Zig still has much of his food through training and rest in a Buster Cube. He only eats out of a bowl when we are away from home or on the odd occasion he's had an upset stomach.

Edited September 10, 2011 by The Spotted Devil