8 Month Old Gsd Died

[Keira&Phoenix]

I just wanted to say sorry for your loss. I can only imagine how devastating it must be to lose such a young pup. I will be giving both my dogs lots of cuddles tonight, these sorts of threads always make you thankful for the time you have with them.

Poodlefan has great advice.

[Ltiger773]

Thanks Woofen. Yeh i have had a bit of a look at Von W's factor. I also dont think it would be common as i think GSD have had a fairly strict testing program for it. And yeh i also thought that the males had it and the females carried it. (ah just wrote all this and then saw Scales of justice's post)

Im still working overseas at the moment but i think i will give the breeder the vets number and they can talk about it because i dont really understand enough about it. Just sort of wanted to ask peoples opinions. I will check Eva's folder when i get home. I cant remember if the parents were tested for Von W factor or not.

Poodle fan & Nekhbet - Thanks for your thoughts also. As i said, im still overseas and i havent seen the full vets report yet. I just wanted to see whether anyone else had anything similar happen to their dog and what their diagnosis was and any tips on ringing breeders when your much loved dog suddenly dies without showing any obvious symptoms of being ill before being found almost dead. I know that the results were inconclusive. I still think it was very similar to mesenteric torsion. This is a passage from a website on mesenteric torsion and the link it came from http://wsgenetics.org/mesenteric_torsion.htm

What is Mesenteric Torsion? It is the twisting of the intestines around the mesenteric axis. The mesentery is the suspension system for the intestines. The many feet of the intestines are suspended by a pretty small mesenteric root that contains the attachment of the mesentery and the major blood vessels providing nutrients to the intestines. Mother Nature designed this amazing network and normally it all functions without problems. However, occasionally, something happens and all goes haywire. This condition is not to be confused with Gastric Bloat/Torsion or Toxic Gut Syndrome, which will be described later. The mortality rate is almost 100% and was once thought to be a rare condition, but evidence has brought to light the fact that this is occurring with ever increasing incidence and has been seen to occur more commonly in German Shepherds than any other breed. The symptoms of this condition are rapid onset of shock, abdominal pain and vomiting. The twisting stops the blood flowing to the intestines, causing tissues to necrotize (in other words: ROT) immediately. This condition causes a dilemma for veterinarians as the symptoms are obtuse and diagnosis is difficult. The dog is usually “down” – in shock, making any surgical options a tough decision. By the time the dog shows any symptoms and you get it to the vet, the torsion has caused the intestines to lose their blood/nutrient supply and also the blood vessels begin to rupture causing internal hemorrhaging. Any condition that predisposes the dog to abdominal pain and/or intestinal irritant can be a predisposing cause of mesenteric torsion.

Another forum is this one http://shepherdcentral.com/viewtopic.php?t=2316 which talks more about bloat than torsion but they are similar. And this one (read the vet replys if your interested)All mention extremely quick death, limited symptoms, purple inflamed, necrotic intestines, internal hemorrhaging.

I am 99.9% certain that it wasnt snake bite. I live in a town in central west NSW and lived nearby all my life. Its well known for being ridiculously cold with early august temps that range from about -3 over night to 9 degrees during the day. I have never seen a snake out any earlier than mid september. She also didnt have any other symptoms prior to dying which might suggest snake bite (headache, irritability, sensitivity to light, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, failure of blood to clot and physical collapse, weakness or unsteadiness in the back legs. In the second and third hours after a bite dogs may have dilated pupils, laboured breathing, stomach pain, erratic heartbeat and bleeding from orifices and wounds) The ones in bold are the only things she had. Also the vet said that her intestines were purple, inflamed and dying which doesnt really fit the snake bite theory. P.s im not trying to attack the idea, just giving reasons why i dont think this was the cause. Mouse bait maybe as i cant rule it out at this stage.

I only meant by "dropped dead" that it was extremely sudden and unexpected as she had shown no obvious symptoms of being remotely ill and was dead in less than an hour. Dont worry i will go lightly when talking to the breeder, she was a really lovely lady who really loved her dogs. Im not going to accuse the breeder of selling me a dodgy puppy or anything. Im more worried about me bawling my eyes out and her not being able to understand what im saying. And Im more afraid to ring the breeder than anything else, theres just that niggling thought in my head that we didnt do enough to save her or that we did something wrong that caused this to happen to her. Part of the reason for me posting on here was to help remind myself that it wasnt something that we did to cause it.

God i cant stop crying!! It sucks trying to hide it in the office : ( only 9 more days and i can go home and bawl to my partner.

[Jumabaar]

Wolfen,

It is VERY unlikely to be haemophilia. Haemophilia has never been common in the GSD in Australia and in the past the GSDCA required all sires to be haemophilia tested. As there has been little evidence of haemophilia in recent years these rules were relaxed by the GSDCA which now only requires imported males and sons of imported bitches to be tested.

In any case with haemophilia in the GSD, females are carriers and males are affected. In this case this female would not be affected, but would be a carrier if it were Haemophilia - so obviously it is not Haemophilia.

I agree totally with Poodlefan whose post is very sensible. It is far more likely to be an "environmental" problem rather than anything that has a genetic cause.

Scales- although it is unlikely to be a female affected it IS possible. Males that are only slightly affected may be bred from to a carrier bitch to produce an affected female. It has happened in the past so please do not say that females can not be affected with Haemophillia.

Also it is possible for it to be a mutation- as I believe has happened in my bitch resulting in me having a litter that had affected males. I am waiting on blood results to know that my four year old dogs are not affected before I use them at stud because they have never had surgery so it is a slim possibility that they have enough factor 8 to live their everyday life- once again unlikely but I never want to put another happy puppy to sleep . It has NEVER been recorded in my breed before- 30% of cases are caused by a mutation and there is no prior history so it can pop up out of nowhere regardless of a clear history.

I only included it to allow the breeder to test and I acknowledge that it is a slim chance of it being factor 8. It sounds like the real cause of death will never be ascertained so giving the breeder as much chance to check their lines for their own peace of mind is only fair. The OP didn't sound like they were accusing the breeder- genetics is not clear cut but informing the breeder of a list of possible causes of death be they environment or congenital (and then if they are heritable or not) is the only way for the breeder to make their own informed decisions on what to do with the parents of this dog. It is NOT about accusations, it is about sharing information and learning.

Ltigher773- your breeder will completely understand your pain. Don't be afraid of crying or that you didn't save her. You sound like a wonderful caring owner and that your girl was loved, which is all a breeder can ask for. I hope you find some closure when you go back and talk to your vet. It will take time to get through this so don't pressure yourself.

Edited September 5, 2011 by ~Woofen~

[Alyosha]

I'm so sorry this happened and you're stuck away from home while trying to deal with it.

Did the vet do any tox work on her? She couldn't have been baited could she?

I hear what you're saying about climate, but we live in a very similar climate (still less than zero most nights with lots of ice) and snakes here have been up and about for a few weeks already. Earlier this year than I've seen in a long time. How you've described her symptoms is screaming Tiger snake bite to me. The excessive bleeding, the unusual crawling under the house behaviour sounds like photosenstivity... The damage to the gut can be caused by the blood disorder coupled with cramping and muscle spasm.

We lost a cat to a snake mid-winter, in a climate like yours (-8 to less than 8 degrees during winter). They don't hibernate and can still move around. However they are irritable and as they aren't hunting, full of venom.

I hope you can get some answers eventually, or at leaast some comfort when you can get home.

[JulesP]

It is really horrible not knowing 'why'. As I said in my earlier post I had a dog die of bait, fairly sure it was snail bait. I don't use snail bait and my dogs are fenced in. I guess I'll never know how he came to eat it. The possibilities are someone did it deliberately or an animal dropped it.

Hugs to you and your partner.

[Ltiger773]

Thanks Woofen. Im sure she will be sympathetic, im sure all breeders go through horrible stuff like this. I dont know about take my time, apparently ive got two new dogs to meet when i get home. Which i am happy about (always been a believer of getting a new one asap to help deal with pain of losing one). My partner was missing Eva so much, he drove to the pound and picked up two young dogs from there. Which im sure being rescue dogs will live to a ripe old age. Trust my luck, buy your first ever purebred and she dies at 8 months old. The new ones will be at a different house so dont worry for those concerned about environmental factors.

Alyosha - Thanks also, yeh it really suck when something crappy like this happens and theres no one that can give you a hug. Actually the last two months have probly been the worst two of my life. My grandpa died, the helicopter at work crashed killing 10 people, my other grandpa fell and had to get another hip replacement, Eva died and the mum emailed me the other day to say our childhood jack russell had died (she was 16 so had a pretty good run). Generally just crap!!!!! I thought this sort of thing happened in threes!!

Im not sure what tests the vet did. I will check when i get home. Im not sure, i dont think so. Its a small town and the neighbours generally look out for each other and all have dogs also. But also a possibility i suppose. There are some horrid people out there.

Yeh i still dont think it was snake. Ive never heard of there being tiger snakes in our area. Mostly common brown snakes. I havent seen any around the house before even in summer. Plus theres two other small, "annoying" dogs and a cat that live at the same house and none of them have been affected. I think she went under the house because she was in huge amounts of pain and was trying to hide, it was 10.30 at night and the only way we found her was because the other dogs were upset hanging around the gap under the house.

My partner will look after me when i get home, plus the two new additions. I have no doubt that they will cheer me up. You cant be sad when you have two big fluffballs competing for your attention. Thanks for the hugs JulesP.

[OSoSwift]

So sorry to hear of your loss.

As for ringing the breeder and crying so they can't understand you - don't worry about it because there is a high possibilty they may just join you! Your breeder sounds lovely and I am quite sure she will be wonderful. As for thinking you may not have done enough....well hindsight is 20/20, it is normal to be wondering if you could have done something differently or something more or sooner. The thing you need to remember is that you guys did the best thing you could for your girl. You sought veterinary treatment as soon as you could, unfortunately sometimes things just cannot be fixed and it suxs.

I hope the new dogs are helping to mend your hearts and we would love photos of them as well when you have gotten home and had a chance to meet them

[Staranais]

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.

Just wanted to add that I have never seen or done a postmortem of a dog with mesenteric torsion, but in sheep the condition is usually fairly obvious on PM & hard to miss.

[Ltiger773]

Thanks ososwift and staranais.

I will definitly post an update on the new pups. With pics of course. Excited to meet them.

Yeh im sure there was nothing we did and probly nothing we could have done differently. She knew she was well loved. She died in my partners arms and she kept looking up at him to make sure he was still there. She was much loved and a beautiful dog.

Staranais - yeh im overseas at the moment and i havent seen the vet reports etc but i did get my mum to send some info i found on the web and they said it was possible that it was mesenteric torsion but i will get more info once i get home. They had never seen anything like it before and i dont think theyd heard of it. There was four vets that said theyd never seen anything like eva. I'll keep you all updated on what i find out when i get home.

[Alyosha]

Geez you've had a really, really bad run. Fingers crossed that you get a break now and time flies for you until you can be home.

[JulesP]

Just read that your pup was a bit funny about eating. This plus spontaneous bleeding can be symptoms of liver disease.

[shells]

I have a friend who had a GSD around the same age die about 3 months ago under similar circumstances but their dog just went to sleep for the night and never woke up.

I am led to believe this dog had a bleeding disease though and she tried following up with the breeder ect and despite being a show winning, registered breeders they didnt want to help.

If you want to PM me I can find out the details of her dog and which breeder she bought from

[raz]

I am 99.9% certain that it wasnt snake bite. I live in a town in central west NSW and lived nearby all my life. Its well known for being ridiculously cold with early august temps that range from about -3 over night to 9 degrees during the day. I have never seen a snake out any earlier than mid september. She also didnt have any other symptoms prior to dying which might suggest snake bite (headache, irritability, sensitivity to light, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, failure of blood to clot and physical collapse, weakness or unsteadiness in the back legs. In the second and third hours after a bite dogs may have dilated pupils, laboured breathing, stomach pain, erratic heartbeat and bleeding from orifices and wounds) The ones in bold are the only things she had.

I'm also thinking snake bite.

I hope you get some answers when you return home. What a dreadful experience for your partner, you and your gorgeous puppy