Pup Keeps Lying Down During Training

[quangle]

Hi everyone,

I am pretty new here and new to dog ownership as well. I have a 6 month old springer spaniel. She is gorgeous and I think she is a pretty quick learner, but the last week or so she has taken to lying down all the time in training sessions and just ignoring me.

In particular whenever I ask her to sit she also always lies down straight afterwards and then is in no hurry to get up. It would be funny if it wasn't so frustrating.

So far she has learnt to sit, drop, stay, go to her mat, go to her crate, spin in both directions, high five, walk backwards, target a stick with her nose and we are working on pivoting around me and closing doors. I am using clicker training (most of my learning has been done by watching Kikopup on youtube) but I have noticed she seems to get discouraged easily, for eg. with the door closing trick, she very quickly got the idea of touching the door with her nose, but when I withold the click to encourage a bit of a 'push' on the door, she quickly gives up - and that is when she will just lie down and ignore me. So she is very quick to catch on to the initial idea, but when I raise the criteria, she doesn't get it.

My first thought is that she is bored? I think I also need to spend some more time on teaching her to focus on me as we kind of missed this step and I think it is biting me on the bum now.

Does anyone have any suggestions how we might get through this stage? Any suggestions would be great, as I said I am new to this so we are learning together.

Thanks

[Agility Dogs]

Hi everyone,

I am pretty new here and new to dog ownership as well. I have a 6 month old springer spaniel. She is gorgeous and I think she is a pretty quick learner, but the last week or so she has taken to lying down all the time in training sessions and just ignoring me.

In particular whenever I ask her to sit she also always lies down straight afterwards and then is in no hurry to get up. It would be funny if it wasn't so frustrating.

So far she has learnt to sit, drop, stay, go to her mat, go to her crate, spin in both directions, high five, walk backwards, target a stick with her nose and we are working on pivoting around me and closing doors. I am using clicker training (most of my learning has been done by watching Kikopup on youtube) but I have noticed she seems to get discouraged easily, for eg. with the door closing trick, she very quickly got the idea of touching the door with her nose, but when I withold the click to encourage a bit of a 'push' on the door, she quickly gives up - and that is when she will just lie down and ignore me. So she is very quick to catch on to the initial idea, but when I raise the criteria, she doesn't get it.

My first thought is that she is bored? I think I also need to spend some more time on teaching her to focus on me as we kind of missed this step and I think it is biting me on the bum now.

Does anyone have any suggestions how we might get through this stage? Any suggestions would be great, as I said I am new to this so we are learning together.

Thanks

Even though it seems like you are only asking for a little more it sounds like she isn't ready to take that big a step. Maybe look at an intermediate step.

The other thing to look at is rate of reward - is there a way to increase that to keep her interest?

Cheers

Tony

[megan_]

oops - reread your post.

My boy is like this - as soon as he "fails" he ignores me. I keep sessions very, very short (think 30 seconds - 1 minute) and break things down a lot.

ETA: Are you sure she understands that she can try something different if her previous action doesn't earn her a click? My boy used to throw a bit of a tantrum when this happened. In fact, he'd often repeat the movement in an exaggerated fashion and then glare at me "there I did it. Did you notice this time?". So I went back to basics and clicked him doing anything. Anything at all. I clicked walking, sitting, looking etc. He got the idea that, when something doesn't work, try something else and see if that gets you a click.

Edited September 2, 2011 by megan_

[quangle]

thanks.

But what is a step I could add? She can 'touch' the door, but then I want her to touch it just a bit harder - enough to give a little push - I would reward for just a fraction of movement.

I have tried on several doors. On my most lightweight door, she can push it closed, but I don't think realises that this is the aim of the game, it just happens because the door is so easy to move. Ask her to do it on a stiffer door and she just gives up when the 'touch' doesn't get a click.

[Kavik]

I think maybe you are going too fast and raising your criteria too fast. Also she is only a 6 month old puppy, maybe you are trying to do too many new things at once? Maybe give the door trick a break for a while and try to get one of the others a bit more solid. I am sure the other behaviours need to be proofed, so maybe do that for a while and come back to the door later when she has a better idea of how not to give up in shaping.

For getting stronger pushes (I am doing this for Treibball) I am holding the ball (I use one of the big fit balls) in between my legs/against my legs and clicking for stronger pushes that way, and rewarding low to push the ball.

[wuffles]

Also, are you sure she is lying down and ignoring you, or might she be offering the drop as a behaviour because it has been highly rewarded in the past? My girl offers drops regularly when I am training her because it is an easy behaviour which is often highly rewarded. If she is dropping then actively avoiding eye contact or sniffing the ground it could be a displacement behaviour - she wants to please you but doesn't know how.

Are you encouraging her in any way or doing more pure shaping where you expect her to figure things out without feedback? Personally my girl gets discouraged easily so I encourage her if she is trying, even if she is not getting it right, by telling her she is good, smiling, etc. I will also do things like point or use my eyes to help her. Also remember to throw in "easy" exercises and play between more difficult exercises to help their confidence!

I have found that there are certain things that take them ages to "get" and if they're not important things I just give up and try again in a few weeks.

[wuffles]

thanks.

But what is a step I could add? She can 'touch' the door, but then I want her to touch it just a bit harder - enough to give a little push - I would reward for just a fraction of movement.

I have tried on several doors. On my most lightweight door, she can push it closed, but I don't think realises that this is the aim of the game, it just happens because the door is so easy to move. Ask her to do it on a stiffer door and she just gives up when the 'touch' doesn't get a click.

Are you using a target? I'd take the target off the door and try getting a harder push on that first. As Kavik says try putting the target somewhere she is more likely to push harder, maybe your hand or even on an item that moves easily when touched.

Edit: To push a door you probably also want an extended touch? I taught an extended touch by asking for two touches before a reward and they naturally got longer from there

Edited September 2, 2011 by wuffles

[corvus]

I think maybe you are going too fast and raising your criteria too fast.

I think that's probably bang on the money. More reps at the earlier criteria builds more confidence in the behaviour, which means that when you raise the criteria the dog is more likely to persist. At that point you are quite likely to get harder, longer, or multiple touches in quick succession. Any of those can be rewarded as the next step in the shaping recipe.

One of my dogs is very easily put off by no reward when he was expecting one. It can take some delicate work to shape him, but I have learnt that it can be done! Just stacks of patience and making sure he is very confident with the current criteria before I change them. He was my first clicker dog and I was pretty awful. I did some target training with him and that helped us both immensely. It helped me get the hang of clicker training and it helped him build up his confidence. He is much easier to shape, now. And I'm much better at it. ;)

[quangle]

might she be offering the drop as a behaviour because it has been highly rewarded in the past? ... it could be a displacement behaviour - she wants to please you but doesn't know how.

Ahh yes, I think this is what it is!!

I knew I should have posted in here ages ago. You guys are so smart. Also the stuff about extended touches, that sounds like what I should do. And of course, proofing her existing behaviours.

Thank you so much, I will see how I go. I do think I need to make it more fun for her, she is very eager to please and quick to learn when she understands what I want, so maybe I am pushing her a bit too hard.

I guess it is easy to move too fast when they seem to pick it up so quick but I need to make sure the knowledge she has is more solid.

You guys are great. I'm sure I will be back with more questions.

Thank you

[bedazzledx2]

All pups progress at their own rate. Although girls are usually quicker than the boys, she just may not be ready for this entire behaviour. A good way to play with shaping without any stress or expectations is the 101 things to do with a box. Just google it and you'll come up with heaps.

When I am training things like this I tend to isolate each tiny behaviour before moving on...then its just a matter of joining the dots. You may be inadvertently lumping and its all a bit much for her. You could also try target training....first to your hand...then to a disc held in your hand...then to the disc taped to the door.