Theoretical Question

[Steve]

Shazzapug - pig dogs were just an example that sprang to mind. It could be any type of non-registered working dog.

For me, I guess it's mainly the ethics I like about registered breeders - the fact that they're breeding for dogs with good health, good conformation, lifelong support and good temperaments and just happen to be registered (and the breeds I like are purebreds).

If there was someone who was doing exactly what a registered breeder was doing but with 2 crossbred dog, for a purpose e.g. working farm dogs or pig dogs etc, would you have a problem with it? I think in general I think I'd be ok with it as long as it wasn't putting potentially difficult dogs into uneducated/unknowledgable homes.

I would still have a problem with it...there is too many unknowns when breeding mongrels to mongrels...and your last statement it the biggy for me. Maybe I am "holier than thou" as called by someone in another thread :D but a backyarder is a backyarder, whether they breed Pugs or Working dogs.

I dont think its up to me to say what is right or wrong - thats all. I already know that there are many people who think breeding purebred dogs is wrong and I dont want to hear what they think any more than those people want to hear what I think .

I do what I do because its because what I think is right and I think its what is best for the dogs I breed.

[Flick_Mac]

I see where you're coming from Shazza, and in an ideal world I would definitely support your ideals 100%. I guess going into the work force as a vet in just over 12 months I've started thinking that I'm going to have to see a lot of backyard breeding and am trying to get my head around what I think about it or how I can make it as responsible as possible. If I had my way every dog would be desexed unless you had a breeding permit for them or they were specifically required to stay entire e.g. show dogs. It's a matter of me compromising rather than saying screw it and just keeping quiet to any client that happens to want to breed so I can get my point across and not alienate them in the process.

Hope that makes sense!

[Shazzapug]

I see where you're coming from Shazza, and in an ideal world I would definitely support your ideals 100%. I guess going into the work force as a vet in just over 12 months I've started thinking that I'm going to have to see a lot of backyard breeding and am trying to get my head around what I think about it or how I can make it as responsible as possible. If I had my way every dog would be desexed unless you had a breeding permit for them or they were specifically required to stay entire e.g. show dogs. It's a matter of me compromising rather than saying screw it and just keeping quiet to any client that happens to want to breed so I can get my point across and not alienate them in the process.

Hope that makes sense!

Yes, and only something you can decide, how high you set the bar...I think you should aim for what you feel and dont compromise but negotiate

[Red Fox]

a backyarder is a backyarder, whether they breed Pugs or Working dogs.

So an experienced breeder importing and breeding high level working dogs out of un-registered KNPV bloodlines is a backyarder?

I think not...

There's more to it than pigging dogs and backyard 'oodles.

[Gayle.]

At the end of the day, a vet is a business person and a young vet is usually an employee of an established practice. The best way to treat a broad range of animals and give the most help to the most animals in need of that help is to stay in business.

Being extremely judgemental of breeding practises that you may not agree with, and imposing a rigid set of ethics on your customers might see you without enough customers to stay in business.

[aussielover]

Shazzapug - pig dogs were just an example that sprang to mind. It could be any type of non-registered working dog.

For me, I guess it's mainly the ethics I like about registered breeders - the fact that they're breeding for dogs with good health, good conformation, lifelong support and good temperaments and just happen to be registered (and the breeds I like are purebreds).

If there was someone who was doing exactly what a registered breeder was doing but with 2 crossbred dog, for a purpose e.g. working farm dogs or pig dogs etc, would you have a problem with it? I think in general I think I'd be ok with it as long as it wasn't putting potentially difficult dogs into uneducated/unknowledgable homes.

I would still have a problem with it...there is too many unknowns when breeding mongrels to mongrels...and your last statement it the biggy for me. Maybe I am "holier than thou" as called by someone in another thread :D but a backyarder is a backyarder, whether they breed Pugs or Working dogs.

Are you saying organisations such as Guide Dogs who breed labrador x goldens are BYBers?

The dogs are all temperament and health tested. The parents are purebred labrador and Golden Retrievers.

These dogs are bred to be functional and have working careers that help hundreds of people.

[Steve]

Shazzapug - pig dogs were just an example that sprang to mind. It could be any type of non-registered working dog.

For me, I guess it's mainly the ethics I like about registered breeders - the fact that they're breeding for dogs with good health, good conformation, lifelong support and good temperaments and just happen to be registered (and the breeds I like are purebreds).

If there was someone who was doing exactly what a registered breeder was doing but with 2 crossbred dog, for a purpose e.g. working farm dogs or pig dogs etc, would you have a problem with it? I think in general I think I'd be ok with it as long as it wasn't putting potentially difficult dogs into uneducated/unknowledgable homes.

I would still have a problem with it...there is too many unknowns when breeding mongrels to mongrels...and your last statement it the biggy for me. Maybe I am "holier than thou" as called by someone in another thread :D but a backyarder is a backyarder, whether they breed Pugs or Working dogs.

Are you saying organisations such as Guide Dogs who breed labrador x goldens are BYBers?

The dogs are all temperament and health tested. The parents are purebred labrador and Golden Retrievers.

These dogs are bred to be functional and have working careers that help hundreds of people.

And everyone is different - .

[Jumabaar]

Just as another argument- instead of pigging dogs....

What about people not looking to better a "breed" so much as produce healthy dogs for a specific purpose? I know many farmers who like first cross kelpie/BC dogs. They keep purebred lines but sell the crosses for working dogs. If they had appropriate health testing what is thought of this.....

[Shazzapug]

Shazzapug - pig dogs were just an example that sprang to mind. It could be any type of non-registered working dog.

For me, I guess it's mainly the ethics I like about registered breeders - the fact that they're breeding for dogs with good health, good conformation, lifelong support and good temperaments and just happen to be registered (and the breeds I like are purebreds).

If there was someone who was doing exactly what a registered breeder was doing but with 2 crossbred dog, for a purpose e.g. working farm dogs or pig dogs etc, would you have a problem with it? I think in general I think I'd be ok with it as long as it wasn't putting potentially difficult dogs into uneducated/unknowledgable homes.

I would still have a problem with it...there is too many unknowns when breeding mongrels to mongrels...and your last statement it the biggy for me. Maybe I am "holier than thou" as called by someone in another thread :D but a backyarder is a backyarder, whether they breed Pugs or Working dogs.

Are you saying organisations such as Guide Dogs who breed labrador x goldens are BYBers?

The dogs are all temperament and health tested. The parents are purebred labrador and Golden Retrievers.

These dogs are bred to be functional and have working careers that help hundreds of people.

So are you saying that the Guide Dogs dont source any of their puppies from Purebreed Lab and Golden registered Breeders?

[Purdie]

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Edited September 1, 2011 by Purdie

[Steve]

Just as another argument- instead of pigging dogs....

What about people not looking to better a "breed" so much as produce healthy dogs for a specific purpose? I know many farmers who like first cross kelpie/BC dogs. They keep purebred lines but sell the crosses for working dogs. If they had appropriate health testing what is thought of this.....

stupid

[Flick_Mac]

At the end of the day, a vet is a business person and a young vet is usually an employee of an established practice. The best way to treat a broad range of animals and give the most help to the most animals in need of that help is to stay in business.

Being extremely judgemental of breeding practises that you may not agree with, and imposing a rigid set of ethics on your customers might see you without enough customers to stay in business.

This is what I'm kind of getting at Gayle. I realise I'll have to do a lot of shutting up and letting it go as a young vet working for someone else, but I'm figuring if I can't discourage someone from breeding encouraging relevant health testing and doing the right thing by the pups and parents might make me more comfortable to be a part of the process.

Thanks Woofen - I couldn't think of any other examples off the top of my head!

[Gayle.]

The vets that I go to manage it by encouraging desexing of any dogs not needing to be kept entire, and if the person still breeds their dogs "inappropriately", encouraging regular health checks of the bitch and the resultant puppies. Really, there's not a lot more you can do except educate without being judgemental.

Be a little bit careful of encouraging health testing without knowing the protocols. As I cited before, unregistered dogs might not qualify for the health tests appropriate for that type of dog. For example......byb labs (and some are generations old) may not be able to be hip and elbow scored due to the need to produce the dogs ANKC registration number and pedigree.

[Sayly]

At the end of the day, a vet is a business person and a young vet is usually an employee of an established practice. The best way to treat a broad range of animals and give the most help to the most animals in need of that help is to stay in business.

Being extremely judgemental of breeding practises that you may not agree with, and imposing a rigid set of ethics on your customers might see you without enough customers to stay in business.

I agree with what you have said Gayle, but we also need to be happy with what we are doing and the ethical decisions we are making, or we won't be in the industry long anyway. We have to live with the decisions we make.