'search & Destroy Mission'

[Alyosha]

Thanks RottnBullies.

Owners of bull breeds need to know where to find reference to that. It could be very important indeed.

[RottnBullies]

Yep, sorry forgot the link

LINK

[jaybeece]

... and I know that this is not the right place to rage about it, but WTF are people doing breeding banned breeds when they know that this kind of thing is happening and it only takes one attack for things to get put into motion?!?!?!? HOW is illegally breeding and selling undesexed APBT, Dogos etc going to help ANYONE?! I 100% understand and agree that the current laws are bs but seriously, why?!

Someone my dad knows/knew breeds them He had an entire female hanging around that was not aggressive as such, but very nervy and unreliable around people. And he was breeding from her

I posted here about it at the time as I didn't know what to do. Dad wouldn't have given me the dickhead's details as he was worried I'd report him and the dogs would be destroyed. I didn't want them killed either so I didn't push the point. But what the hell do you do then? Let wankers like that ruin breeds by continuing to pump out pitties with dodgy temperaments for god knows what reason?

It's all so frustrating. I took some of it out by defacing the cover of a stupid Herald Sun today in a coffee shop. I'm sure all 3 people who read it will be convinced...*sigh*

All this stuff makes me slightly nervous as I've been asked if my dog is a pit bull before (he's WAY too tall and lanky though). He's registered as a bullmastiff x, but how long before they go under the hammer too??? Some articles are listing the dog involved in the fatal attack as a pit bull mastiff. Whatever the hell that is, they either got their breeds mixed up or missed the "x". My dog would not pass a temperament test with other dogs and is nervy around people. Just bloody marvellous.

Apparently the laws have now been changed so dogs travelling on trains now must wear a muzzle? Has anyone heard about that? Before it was just advised to carry one, not mandatory that they were worn.

[Nekhbet]

no Jaybeece the law was always there its just no one ever policed it on the trains.

[jaybeece]

Aaah right, thanks Nek

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I just sent to the minister for tourism in victoria that I'm not coming to do the agility training course any more.

[email protected]

key bit in my email

You cannot judge a dog or predict their behaviour based on appearance alone, any more than you can for a human.

And reference links

Reference links

NSW bite statistics.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_generalindex.asp?sectionid=1&areaindex=DAIDATA&documenttype=8&mi=9&ml=10

Pick the pitbull visual ID pages - can you pick the pitbull?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

and a pdf poster of pitbull look alikes - can you pick the pitbull?

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/Pit%20Bull%20ID%20Poster.pdf

And an international dogs' owners trainer, Dr Ian Dunbar's opinion

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/breedism

Ian Dunbar's qualifications veterinarian, behaviourist, and founder of the pet dog trainers associaton.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogger/4

"The weak link in the chain lies in the identification of the breed of the biter."

and

"As a long-term solution though, dog owners must be taught, how to teach their dogs bite inhibition (so that they cause no damage) and how to socialize dogs to people (so that they feel no need to bite People)."

For a more local opinion - also academically qualifed and teacher

Paul McGreevy - author of "A modern Dog's life".

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/about/staff/pmcgreevy.shtml

in "a modern dog's life" on page 300, Paul writes "the most dangerous thing about a pitbull is the owner".

[Aidan3]

Please do it for the future of bull breeds in Australia

And every other breed or cross that might pose a threat. There are many precedents for the slippery slope.

[sandgrubber]

The thing is- how on earth are you supposed to know. I honestly couldn't tell you with any certainty what my cross breed dogs are. I don't think they are APBT but other people might. I just saw Graeme Smith from LDH on spruiking about them being the most dangerous dogs in Australia- and then they showed a dog that looked like one of mine..

If you or others want to write letters to appropriate people, you can cite the AVA at http://www.ava.com.au/newsarticle/new-dog-laws-victoria

The biggest problem is determining whether an animal is actually a Pit Bull or Pit Bull cross, or whether it is a cross involving other breeds. There is no DNA test which can identify an animal as a Pit Bull or cross, so the determination can only be made on physical appearance. This is a grey area that can, and will be, contested in court.

I'd hope someone is setting up a court case to contest the law . . . at least, once it's published. It isn't clear what powers of search and seizure it gives, nor whom is empowered to search and seize.

[Ker]

Ok, someone I know on another forum is panicking.

She ha a Staffy X, registered a such under advisement of the Lost Dogs Home, where the dog was adopted from. She's now worried there will be a knock on the door. What do I tell her? She's genuinely worried that she'll lose her dog.

Eta- Crap. I just saw a pic of her dog. She's tan and looks a LOT like an APBT to my (untrained) eye.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Ker

[RottnBullies]

The biggest problem is determining whether an animal is actually a Pit Bull or Pit Bull cross, or whether it is a cross involving other breeds. There is no DNA test which can identify an animal as a Pit Bull or cross, so the determination can only be made on physical appearance. This is a grey area that can, and will be, contested in court.

I'd hope someone is setting up a court case to contest the law . . . at least, once it's published. It isn't clear what powers of search and seizure it gives, nor whom is empowered to search and seize.

Yes. And I would hope someone Is working on this as well, It's how they fought It and won In QLD

[Ker]

The tan one in the rear?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I'd tell her to get the dna test.

It's not likely it would be true pitbull because there were so few in Australia originally. And lots of cross breeds of other dog types look like that.

[sumosmum]

Ok, someone I know on another forum is panicking.

She ha a Staffy X, registered a such under advisement of the Lost Dogs Home, where the dog was adopted from. She's now worried there will be a knock on the door. What do I tell her? She's genuinely worried that she'll lose her dog.

Eta- Crap. I just saw a pic of her dog. She's tan and looks a LOT like an APBT to my (untrained) eye.

The LDH are the self professed experts on identifying the breed, so if they rehomed a dog that was a restricted breed, they themselves have broken the law. It was and still is illegal to rehome a restricted breed dog as far as I know.

I am in the same boat, so that will be my argument if anyone challenges me.

Edited for spelling

Edited August 30, 2011 by sumosmum

[sandgrubber]

What ever "poodle fan".

I live in one of the roughest neighborhoods in Australia, we had over 5 murders in this suburb last year and many, many other bashings, sexual assaults and attacks. Just cause you live in posh poodle ville doesn't give you a right to judge. I've only been here a year and I have already had my place broken into and my possession stolen, including my former dog (which was a labradore).

You can really go stuff your opinions. Little Timmy isn't going to be coming over my 3 metre high fence, I don't have any kids as neighbors and all the neighbors are long term.

Its none of your bloody business why I want a specific dog or not, and I have every right to have a guard dog that is capable of taking down an intruder for my protection (well I should have that right, if Australia wasn't such a gutless cotton wool nanny state). I have a right to protect myself whatever you may think. You may like dogs that are "like little poodles" but I like real dogs with assertive temperaments that are capable of protecting me. BTW You would make a great leader for this nanny state, seeing as you like to judge other peoples business.

I am a responsible owner, entirely capable of managing my dog and restricting my dog to my property. You are a clown who likes to think people are too irresponsible to handle things and everything should be banned.

Oh and "poodlefan", there are many non-banned breeds which are quite capable of mauling to death little Timmy, I have met great danes and other dogs that would maul little Timmy if he jumped the back fence, its not the breed, its how the dog is trained and socialized, its hypocritical and deluded reasoning that thinks some breeds are "bad". There is no such thing as an evil or bad breed of dog.

Screw the government banning everything (especially dogs), because of the extremely small minority of dog attacks by irresponsible dog owners (you know instead of actually holding those owners heavily responsible). Ban cars, ban back yard pools, ban swimming, ban sports, lets all wrap the whole of society in cotton wool and take away all of our liberties, otherwise poodlefan might have nightmares about the bad things that could happen. OH WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

So, you get a filo. Your neighbours see you have a huge, super-protective dog and stop robbing you. Instead, they all get filos, cause they're as afraid of crime as you are, and what's more, the dog looks cool. Are they all as responsible as you claim to be? Hell no. Oops, now we have 55 kg wandering dogs, bred to be extremely aggressive to strangers. There's a serious domestic and the police are called in. Oops, policeman in the hospital and dog gets shot dead.

Your dog needs exercise to remain sane. You go out walking. Oops, the neighbor's fence isn't up to par. OMG!!!! What a dog fight! Oops, somebody stepped in to try and stop it and ended out in the hospital. The filo is a rich person's dog in Brazil, cause they're expensive to feed and manage. From what you say, I'd guess the folks in your neighbourhood aren't flush with cash. Deary deary, they find they can't afford to feed and otherwise care for the pup once it gets past 30 kg. But by that time, it has learned who is in its pack and now attacks everyone outside that circle. What happens when they try to rehome. PTS.

If your neighbourhood is so dangerous, why not leave?

There ARE dogs who are bred for low attack thresholds, low bite inhibition, and innate dislike of either strange people, strange dogs, or both. The filo is and extreme case where these traits (with respect to strange humans) are written into one of the two breed standards, and a large fraction of the dogs in that branch of breed are up to standard. It is not the breed that's the problem, it a pedigree showing many generations of breeding for dogs that will do 'the deed'.

The APBT is not the filo. Sadly, there are pit bull lines bred for what I would call bad temperament, and individuals who manage to get bad temperament out of dogs who should have been fine. A large fraction of the breed is as gregarious and waggy as the average Australian SBT (at least in the California town I live in). And there are dogs who seem fine and then, god only knows why, snap and attack someone (eg, the recent tragic case in Pacifica where the pregnant woman was killed by her own dog . . . the folks concerned were active in pit bull rescue and trying to improve the image of the breed).

Edited August 30, 2011 by sandgrubber

[hotdogz]

I would euthanase anyone who attempted to seize my dog.

Edited August 30, 2011 by hotdogz

[sandgrubber]

can someone please explain to me. Say your in Victoria and you have some bullbreed X, but no APBT in it. Say the council comes knocking. Can a DNA test conclusively prove that your dog has no APBT in it?

No.

See

http://www.ava.com.au/newsarticle/new-dog-laws-victoria

[RottnBullies]

LINK

DUE TO THE IMPROPER USE OF THE AMERICAN DOG BREEDERS ASSOCIATION INC. AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER BREED STANDARD BEING USED AS A BREED IDENTIFIER IN PROPOSED LAWS AND ORDINANCES, A BREED STANDARD USE CLAUSE WILL NOW BE A PART OF OUR AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER BREED STANDARD.

Any unauthorized or improper use of the American Dog Breeders Association Inc. copyright standard is strictly prohibited."

copyright©1976

American Dog Breeders Association Inc. (ADBA) APBT Standard Disclaimer

This breed standard is not a breed identifier. It may only be used to judge the standards of quality of the American Pit Bull Terrier, as set forth. It's purpose is for use by American Dog Breeders Association Inc. breeders, or American Dog Breeders Association Inc. sanctioned judges, in determining the quality of each animal being judged at an American Dog Breeders Association Inc. sanctioned show, or event and for awarding ADBSI points based upon individual quality as reflected by the breed standard of excellence. It may also be used to evaluate the quality of breeding stock by breeders of ADBA registered American Pit Bull Terriers for selecting breeding stock, and for evaluating the quality of individual puppies from ADBA registered American Pit Bull Terrier litters.

[ncarter]

Yep, sorry forgot the link

LINK

I thought they were different breeds, whats this about "His Honour also determined that the Amstaff was merely a name adopted in the United States of America for APBTs. The Court found that Tango was an Amstaff, but therefore also an APBT and a restricted dog"

[Leema]

This same letter I sent to Peter Walsh. His email is [email protected]

Dear Ted,

I am writing to you as I am very concerned about legislation being introduced in Victoria regarding dangerous dogs. I understand that your government is trying to make changes that reduce dog bites, which is an admirable goal. As you understand, dog bites are a multifaceted problem requiring many avenues of attack. However, I fear your new strategy will not see a change in dog bite statistics as you hoped.

Implementing legislation that specifies particular requirements for pit bulls has been implemented, at different times and in a variety of conditions, globally. However, it has never been seen to decrease the incidence of dog bites. My concern is that your legislation, by targeting pit bulls, will also fall into the ineffective category.

In order to reduce dog bites, we need to be providing councils with sufficient resources to enforce existing legislation. There are too many instances of dogs roaming at large and existing unregistered, due to the inability of rangers to uphold existing legislation. Additional funding should be provided for these means.

Additionally, I think public education - for dog owners, adults, and children - could go a long way in ensuring stable dogs in the community, and safe interactions by others. This is also an area that could benefit from increasing funding.

I fully support proposals that make dog owners responsible for their dog's behaviour. This would allow owners of dogs that bite or kill to be prosecuted for offences, including manslaughter. Hopefully this type of change would make dog owners think twice about owning an aggressive animal.

Your current proposal seeks to classify dogs as 'pitbulls' by their physical characteristics. This is an impossibility. In reality, the legislation is targeting dogs of a particular appearance. As staffordshire bull terriers, and mongrels of, are popular breeds, it is likely that many innocent pets with no pit bull heritage would be condemned with these legislation changes. Indeed, as staffordshire bull terriers are a very popular breed, I am sure a number of voters will be incredibly disgruntled by this problematic move that targets their pets, guilty of no offence.

As a public figure, I know it is often difficult to make changes to assertions. However, considering the circumstances, I think a more elaborate review of the literature regarding dog bite strategies (i.e. what has and hasn't worked) is necessary to ensure that dog bites are reduced. It would be foolish to invest in a scheme that does not deliver a reduction in dog bites.

Ultimately, we want something that WORKS, not something that looks good on paper. I fear that the strategy that you are proposing does nothing to truly reduce dog bites.

I welcome your email or phone call. My phone number is xxxx

ETA: I am posting these in the hopes it will assist others in their letter writing.

[Leema]

Another scary article http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/councils-call-for-more-officers-to-hunt-dangerous-pit-bulls/story-fn7x8me2-1226126128704

Councils call for more officers to hunt dangerous pit bulls

COUNCILS want the State Government to give them enough officers to comb the suburbs looking for pit bulls and other dangerous dogs.

The Municipal Association of Victoria has asked the Coalition for resources to respond to a wave of calls to the dangerous dog hotline as well as teams of officers to make street by street searches in the suburbs most likely to have unregistered pit bulls.

The Dob in a Dangerous Dog hotline received 122 calls yesterday, with 37 reports of suspect dogs passed to councils for follow-up action.

Two weeks after the horrifying death of Ayen Chol, four, in St Albans, Parliament yesterday began introducing guidelines to officially label pit bulls and end an amnesty on September 30 so any unregistered restricted-breed dogs can be destroyed.

The Government also said it would pass legislation in a fortnight to introduce a new crime to jail the owners of dogs who attack people similar to culpable driving, which carries a sentence up to 20 years.

The Government and MAV will monitor calls to the dangerous dog hotline before deciding how many staff it will promise councils.

MAV chief executive Rob Spence also called for a team of dedicated officers to patrol areas such as Brimbank, Dandenong, and suburbs in outer Melbourne where there are high concentrations of restricted breed dogs.

"The councils are concerned about the workload but understand that we have to do it and are really distraught about what happened to that child," he said.

The RSPCA reported it had been contacted by dozens of frightened pet owners fearing their dogs will be mistakenly killed.

"People are frightened that their dogs will be mistaken for a pit bull or for a dangerous breed when in fact they're not," RSPCA Victoria chief executive Maria Mercurio said.

"It's a very dangerous way to be going about this. Even so-called experts have difficulty determining exact breeds, particularly with cross breeds."

Lort Smith Animal Hospital shelter manager Liz Walker congratulated the government for its "gloves off" approach in dealing with the dangerous dog situation, but said it needed to expand the measures to combat all dangerous dogs and not just those of particular breeds.

"Beefing up the legislation and forcing people to be more responsible is essential," she said.

"They need to broaden it, make sure there's very clear perameters and process for determining if its a pitbull or a cross breed."

Agriculture Minister Peter Walsh said pit bull and pit bull cross owners would not be given a second chance after September 30 to register their dogs. They could notify authorities now or risk having them destroyed.

"After September 30, when the amnesty finishes, if they have a pit bull type dog that fits the description ... councils will seize that dog and destroy it," he warned.

"It is not an issue of fining them if they have an illegal restricted breed type dog _ it is a matter that councils will have the power to seize it and destroy it."

ANYONE wanting to identify a pit bull or other dangerous dog living in their neighbourhood can call 1300 101 080 from 8am to 6pm, seven days a week.

I posted this comment:

Any dog owner should be terrified by this statement: "if they have a pit bull type dog that fits the description ... councils will seize that dog and destroy it". These changes mean they are coming after bull breed dogs, not pit bulls themselves. If you have a staffordshire bull terrier, an american staffordshire, or mongrels of these breeds, your dog is at risk of being destroyed under these proposed changes. Any dog that looks 'bully' is at risk, even if they have never shown aggression, even if they are a therapy dog, even if they are obedience trained.

This is a hugely flawed plan by the Baillieu government. None of us want to see people getting bitten by dogs, but this legislation is merely a knee-jerk reaction that does nothing to target the cause of dog bites: Irresponsible owners who poorly socialise and poorly contain their animals. We need to start blaming people and stop blaming pets.