Dumbbell Training

[koalathebear]

Elbie and Hoover started gold level obedience at our club last week. One of the items in the syllabus is a retrieve. Elbie has never retrieved before - he has always preferred being chased or if he fetches at all, he will fling the object at our feet. Hoover has never retrieved - he just chases Elbie :p

So we recently bought a dumbbell and started training them with it. Video below of four days of dumbbell training:

Any tips about what I can do about Hoover? He seems to only have two ways of interacting with the dumbbell:

1. bites down very fast and releases before I can click or praise him for the 'hold down' part, so it looks like I am praising him for releasing

2. rolling it around in his mouth and gnawing on it like you see in the video. I don't want to praise him for that because that's what ended up destroying our brand new dumbbell - it was made of pine and soft so got all splintery. That's why for day 3 onwards, I had to use a rubber dental bone for the retrieve training - and why Elbie can't quite hold it 'straight' in his mouth.

Hoover is smart but it's pretty normal that it takes him longer than Elbie to learn something. Once he learns it, it's very rock solid - I just haven't been able to even teach him to hold the dumbbell in his mouth - quite a contrast to Elbie who picked it up much more quickly. Thanks in advance!

Edited August 18, 2011 by koalathebear

[spoilt lab lives here]

I have no tips because we are just starting dumbell work. It seriously blows his mind! He is just so gung ho about it and will retrieve till the cows come home but he wont hold it, he will roll it in his mouth and spit it out and he wont touch the middle when its on the ground. He will only pick it up by the end. Hopefully training on Saturday will give us some tips as we are doing dumbell work.

[Kavik]

I think you are doing great! It took me ages just to get mine to hold it in their mouth. Diesel now retrieves reliably if a bit slow, Zoe is super fast but mouths the dumbbell as I hadn't taught her hold as well as I did Diesel.

I use a plastic dumbbell (harder for them to destroy!)

Have you looked at this page on shaping the retrieve?

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

[The Spotted Devil]

ktb - this is how I trained a retrieve -for both my retrieve-mad Springer and my couldn't-be-less interested Dalmatian. I've gone back to square one with my Dally because he was mouthing the dumbbell. At the moment he is so excited about retrieving that I'm going to have to re-train the "wait" Below is something I wrote on another (retrieving) list - I just copied/pasted to save time - if you need some clarification please yell. Loudly ;) Any mouthing and the dumbbell is gently removed and I said in a light voice "ah well, try again" - i.e. you've lost your chance to earn a reward but let's have another go! Back-chaining rocks :D

Firstly I pictured the exact 'front' position I wanted and shaped that until it was second nature for her (which also gives me a lovely recall for obedience!) Then I sat on a chair, legs slightly apart and called her to 'front' and rewarded that - I only use her dry food in the house - save the good rewards for high distraction areas. If they get silly when there is food (like mine does), I tend to hide it. Then I brought out the obedience dumbbell and, whilst holding it, went through the sniff, mouth, no chewing criteria of shaping it. I started using the clicker on this one but moved to a verbal 'good' as she was flying through the steps and it was hard to keep up with my hands full. As soon as she had the hang of that I quickly introduced other objects - the wood, leather and metal objects from obedience for example - but the more different objects you can use to generalise the hold/present the better. Start holding the object to a hard angle to the left and right so they have to collect it and then consciously straighten themselves up for the present. I hold the dumbbell on it's end so she is tempted to not pick it up in the middle - ah well, no reward for that one, try again! I didn't even train this with the dummy but she generalised it without a problem as she truly understood the exercise. Also, shaping really depends on your timing and your dog's ability to think laterally so video your training sessions and also try some free shaping to get the dog relaxed and confident about offering new behaviours.Don't forget to reward when you are doing the drills - if you think about it they're not all that exciting for the dog and some are really difficult concepts. As I was told by one of our trainers at an obedience seminar....if your dog isn't doing what you want him to, he's either confused or underpaid.

Edited August 18, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[wuffles]

I don't really have any tips except to remember that it took us months to get Ava actually holding the dumbbell so patience is the key :D I am yet to work out how to make her NOT seem like she's being tortured when holding it

I'll bring my plastic dumbbell for you to give a go tomorrow and maybe we can run through it on Sunday

[koalathebear]

Thanks all, I've been following the Shirley Chong website. I guess the frustrating thing is that Elbie was able to get it in four days but Hoover is clearly going to require a LOT longer. It's definitely no this fault - he is super keen - desperately so and will offer up all sorts of behaviours in an attempt to satisfy me, but I'm clearly not being clear enough in conveying what I want him to do.

I am going to have to go back to basics with him and yes - a rubber dumbbell will help a LOT

[Jigsaw]

In the video it looks like Hoover is holding the dumbbell too far back in his mouth. It should be held just behind the canines. If it is held any further back dog's tend tom roll it or mouth it. Teaching a secure hold of the dumbbell is important because if the dog is mouthing the dum bell they can easily drop it. One thing you can try is holding the dumbbell at the end and continuing to hold it while the dog takes it in their mouth. When the dog has hold of it you pull very gently giving a little resistance to the dumbbell. Most dog's will hold the dumbbell a little tighter then. Also check that the dowel part of the dumbbell is not too thick or too thin for your dog's mouth.

You can also use you finger to train the dumbbell - you start slowly with the dog putting lips on your finger, then teeth pushing on, then teeth opening and so on. You can really feel how good a grip they've got on your finger. You can then transfer this to the dumbbell, same process.

I would back chain the sitting in front position. That is the dog is given the dumbbell in "front" and holds it there, learns that that is where the reward is. Also watch how you are taking the item from the dog's mouth. Are you going to use one hand either side of the dumbbell or one hand underneath? Be aware that some dog's see the hand coming and spit the dumbbell out! So I try to desensitize with the dog holding the dumbbell and I gently tap the sides and she has to hold until I give the release command.

Some dogs (and this is my dog) have the chase and pick up but not the retrieve, as in return it to me!

Of course keep the reinforcement rate high, break up sessions and sometimes you have to work through a point of frustration with the dog to get them to hold it longer.

[koalathebear]

Also watch how you are taking the item from the dog's mouth. Are you going to use one hand either side of the dumbbell or one hand underneath? Be aware that some dog's see the hand coming and spit the dumbbell out! So I try to desensitize with the dog holding the dumbbell and I gently tap the sides and she has to hold until I give the release command.

Thanks for this - Elbie was releasing too early i.e. as soon as my hand approached but as you suggested, tonight I tried tapping on it and doing different things to teach him not to release until I gave the release word. He seems to be getting good at it. We also tried with different objects and he seems fine about that, too.

Hoover did a little better tonight. Held it a little longer, a bit less mouthing. I'll keep taking it slow with him.

[Red Fox]

I taught a retrieve through backchaining using a clicker and later a voice command (similar to TSD). Starting with teaching a solid hold in the 'front' position with a piece of wooden dowel (also used PVC pipe and rubber hose). Once we had "hold" I taught him "bring" (so sit, place the dumbell in his mouth and then recall to front).

I then repeated that all over again with a dumbbell (by that stage he knew well what "hold" meant - no rewards for dropping / mouthing the dumbbell.

Then started from scratch again teaching him to pick it up off the ground, then pick it up and hold it, then pick it up, hold and bring, then proofed that from different positions (kind of like working around a clock face), added distance, etc.

Once that was clear we put it all together in a formal retrieve.

It took about two weeks to get him retrieving reliably and enjoying it . And this is a dog who has zero interest in fetching anything.

I found the Michael Ellis retrieving DVD really helpful.

Edited August 20, 2011 by SecretKei

[koalathebear]

Thanks all. wuffles gave me a plastic dumbbell which is heaps better - Hoover mouths that much less than the wooden one. Quick question - for the return and sitting before me (same position as the recall), how close should the dog be? Sometimes I've seen the dog's nose almost touching its handler it's that close - I don't think I could ever persuade either of my two to sit that close - they prefer to hover a little at a distance to see what's going on.

[koalathebear]

Wow, wuffles' plastic dumbbell made all the difference - it must be magical!

Day 6 and Hoover finally understands he is supposed to hold the dumbbell in his mouth. It has taken him 6 days whereas Elbie took 2 days but he got there in the end. Will try some retrieving next to see if he will bring it back and sit nicely

[koalathebear]

Day 7, Hoover has learned to pick the dumbbell off the ground and hold it. Previously he assumed that this meant it was a toy to be gnawed on

I won't try throwing it until he picks it up and holds it every time.

[Jigsaw]

Good boy Hoover! Well done with your training! Some dogs like the texture of the wood and like to chomp down on it and the plastic is a good place to start then. Is the dowel part of the plastic dumbell less thick than the wooden one? Being thicker can make them roll it around in their mouth too.

[koalathebear]

Good boy Hoover! Well done with your training! Some dogs like the texture of the wood and like to chomp down on it and the plastic is a good place to start then. Is the dowel part of the plastic dumbell less thick than the wooden one? Being thicker can make them roll it around in their mouth too.

You're right on both counts. The plastic one was a little thinner and Hoover definitely did seem to enjoy chomping away on the wooden one, too :p Thank you so much for your tips, they were really helpful, particularly the desensitising them to my hand coming forward.

I am using the wooden dumbbell with Elbie since he doesn't mouth/chew and using the plastic one with Hoover. Elbie is five months older than Hoover but it's always odd to see how much quicker he picks things up than Hoover does. Still, Hoover is also smart - there are a bunch of tricks we never taught Hoover, he just picked up himself by watching Elbie - I guess he just has a different way of learning and understanding what his humans want!

[wuffles]

KTB I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread.

Does anyone have tips on how to make the dumbbell FUN for a dog that doesn't naturally retrieve?

I used the Shirley Chong method and she knows both retrieve on flat and over the jump. Never misses a retrieve over the jump but on the flat sometimes she wanders out, sniffs the ground (displacement behaviour?) and doesn't bring the dumbbell back. I have gone back to shorter distances where she is more reliable, and only do one or two per session so she doesn't get bored.

I could probably also improve her hold as she sometimes rolls it backwards when she comes to sit in front but as she hates it to start with I have been a bit slack with my criteria and big on the rewards

[The Spotted Devil]

wuffles, you need to build value for the retrieve - my Dally did not want to know about retrieving and yet a few weeks ago threw himself in a dam (he hates swimming) to get Em's dummy as she was getting all the rewards. Funniest thing I've seen in a while Bring out the best treats you can think of and mix up how you deliver them. Make sure the dog is hungry and don't overdo the session. One game I have with Zig is releasing him to a bait plate - the running to the plate of treats is as much as a reward as the treats themselves. I run with him and whoop and holler and cheer like an idiot :D

[koalathebear]

my Dally did not want to know about retrieving and yet a few weeks ago threw himself in a dam (he hates swimming) to get Em's dummy as she was getting all the rewards.

Heh heh that is so funny you should say that! My two kind of boosted the value in the dumbbell up themselves in the sense that they suddenly decided that the dumbbell was the most awesome thing in the world when the other one had it. Both of them keep trying to nudge the other one out of the way to get it I know it's supposed to be put away when you're not using it but I had the dumbbell sitting on my desk and Hoover sat beside my desk staring up at it longingly as if he wanted to do some training.

wuffles - of course I don't mind Any insights into the mysterious art of retrieving is most welcome.

Hoover has JUST started doing some short-distance retrieve work with the dumbbell - inside only still. The problem is that when he returns to me, he returns crooked and doesn't sit directly in front of me :p I might have to go back to putting the dumbbell directly in front of me

Edited August 23, 2011 by koalathebear

[koalathebear]

Day 8 of Dumbbell Training with Hoover.

Our new hardwood dumbbells arrived today which should be able to resist Hoover's teeth - although he has mostly stopped gnawing.

He has finally figured out that he is supposed to retrieve the dumbbell.

[Nekhbet]

I'm commenting on the first video. You release the dumbell for way too long. You should release, let him hold, take hold before he chews or spits and click. So give, release, take, click. He spits the dumbell and you say good boy - so he was rewarded for the wrong behaviour.

Take it right back, extend it more slowly because you now have to get past the chewing. Also no other dog in the room when you train things like this as the competitive edge can make them exhibit behaviours you dont want and they cannot concentrate straight on you.

[koalathebear]

Hi Nekhbet, thanks for that. By day 8 they're both retrieving and holding the dumbbell. For some training we crate one of them. For others, the competitiveness is better than food :p