Child Killed By Dog

[Mags]

Does the general public even want to be educated. They want easy, they want instant and they don't want any work. Doesn't matter what breed of dog they get the chances are they will have issues as they buy on impulse from places like pet stores (puppies that have already had a less than ideal start in life and are unlikely to be socialised), don't have a clue about the animals requirements, don't bother putting in the work (and owning a dog is work)to teach the dog what it needs to be a good companion, don't deal with problems, often don't even recognise there are problems. And if they finally do decide its all too hard the dog is dumped at the pound or out of the house to lead a solitary life in a backyard with minimal attention. For many there seems a total disconnect between the animals they want to keep as companions and their ability to keep them. And what is even worse they will blame the animal or the breed & then go out and get another animal cause the last one "had something wrong with it" not of their doing of course.

I don't know what the answer is but it is clear there are people in our society that should not own companion animals, and what is even more unfortunate they teach their children this lack of empathy for other living things and produce yet another generation that should not own companion animals.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Mags

[LizT]

True. But will gen public ever be educated?

It's very difficult for Mr. Average John Citizen to admit he actually knows very little about dogs and their behaviour. "I've had dogs all my life, we bred gundogs and we trained them etc. etc." will be an example of some of the logic used. "So, why then do I need to do anything further to enhance my already extensive canine knowlege". Especially as these types of course would have to start with the very, very basics of dog care and most people would feel they are wasting their time starting out at ground level.

And then you will have the huge differences in opinion on dog training. Who decides which is the correct approach/technique for a public directed course? The RSPCA? Local councils? Who polices it and ensures people go?

[WoofnHoof]

GT posted a link in this thread to an NZ licensing program, quite interesting.

I doubt a basic course would need to go into detail about training regimes etc more just to educate about the importance of doing some training, same with basic animal care and nutrition we all know that could be debated ad nauseum but there are a few basics that everyone should know. That is what I would think would be appropriate to cover in a basic course. As well as local laws pertaining to dog containment and off leash areas etc. Yep it might be boring for people well versed in it but there are a lot of people who are surprised at what they don't know and if they have to do it in order to keep their dogs well they'll have to do it boring or not.

As for who polices it who knows but someone will be policing pit bulls and amstaffs and whatever other breed comes under the microscope before too long so I'd rather have them policing a mandatory education system than just wiping animals out. Once the infrastructure is in place it would be relatively easy to monitor, get meter readers or council workers to note down each address with an animal, check the database is there a licensed owner at that address? Yes all good. No send them a letter saying you have x days/months to complete the course and obtain your license then if it's still not done it might go to a show cause type situation where the person has to justify why they haven't done it and have a panel or a judge assess whether it's reasonable. Most of the current infrastructure is already in place it's just adding another element, like a boat license or a wildlife license.

[Leema]

This tragic story once again tells us that our current legislation is not effective.

But what is the solution?

It is undeniable that breed bans are ineffective and irrational, but they are easy, and they are a convenience knee jerk reaction for the government wanting to 'do something' for the concerned public. As much as we may complain about this, this thread in it's entirety has not really provided any more suitable suggestions on stopping the dog bite problem.

I think simply education, as we have now, should continue:

1) Educate dog owners (and potential owners) on raising a confident, non-aggressive dog

2) Educate parents on how to supervise interactions between dogs and children

3) Educate children on how to act around dogs, once they are old enough and in case a situation of no-supervision arises

Of course, this is not enough.

I don't think licensing owners is a solution. Have you seen how incompetent rangers are at enforcing dogs not to be 'roaming at large'? How the hell would a licensing database be funded, let alone enforced?

I do think there is a lot of merit in allowing owners to be fined, charged, jailed for the actions of their animal. I would like to see this in place, but I am not sure that it will a) act as a deterrent to owning aggressive animals or b) encourage owners to seek help for problematic behaviour.

Is there any merit in also prosecuting breeders of aggressive dogs? For me, I am absolutely confident the dogs I have bred would never kill someone. But of course, any dog can bite. Which level of aggression is worth prosecuting?

[teddy]

Does the general public even want to be educated. They want easy, they want instant and they don't want any work. Doesn't matter what breed of dog they get the chances are they will have issues as they buy on impulse from places like pet stores (puppies that have already had a less than ideal start in life and are unlikely to be socialised), don't have a clue about the animals requirements, don't bother putting in the work (and owning a dog is work)to teach the dog what it needs to be a good companion, don't deal with problems, often don't even recognise there are problems. And if they finally do decide its all too hard the dog is dumped at the pound or out of the house to lead a solitary life in a backyard with minimal attention. For many there seems a total disconnect between the animals they want to keep as companions and their ability to keep them. And what is even worse they will blame the animal or the breed & then go out and get another animal cause the last one "had something wrong with it" not of their doing of course.

I don't know what the answer is but it is clear there are people in our society that should not own companion animals, and what is even more unfortunate they teach their children this lack of empathy for other living things and produce yet another generation that should not own companion animals.

wholeheartedly agree with your comments

[zayda_asher]

This tragic story once again tells us that our current legislation is not effective.

But what is the solution?

It is undeniable that breed bans are ineffective and irrational, but they are easy, and they are a convenience knee jerk reaction for the government wanting to 'do something' for the concerned public. As much as we may complain about this, this thread in it's entirety has not really provided any more suitable suggestions on stopping the dog bite problem.

I think simply education, as we have now, should continue:

1) Educate dog owners (and potential owners) on raising a confident, non-aggressive dog

2) Educate parents on how to supervise interactions between dogs and children

3) Educate children on how to act around dogs, once they are old enough and in case a situation of no-supervision arises

Of course, this is not enough.

I don't think licensing owners is a solution. Have you seen how incompetent rangers are at enforcing dogs not to be 'roaming at large'? How the hell would a licensing database be funded, let alone enforced?

I do think there is a lot of merit in allowing owners to be fined, charged, jailed for the actions of their animal. I would like to see this in place, but I am not sure that it will a) act as a deterrent to owning aggressive animals or b) encourage owners to seek help for problematic behaviour.

Is there any merit in also prosecuting breeders of aggressive dogs? For me, I am absolutely confident the dogs I have bred would never kill someone. But of course, any dog can bite. Which level of aggression is worth prosecuting?

I agree that education is at the heart of the matter... and its about putting it into the everyday, so that people are learning even when they think they aren't or relating it to other topics that they do care about, so that there is an incentive there for them to learn. I'd love to see dog info etc. as a part of pre and post natal classes for example.

One of the best models is the Calgary one, which is focused on positively reinforcing owners for appropriate actions with their dogs. This has seen the city’s dog attacks falling to the lowest levels in 25 years. In fact, it has been noted that Pit Bull ownership in the city of Calgary has actually increased in this period as well! Here is a little info, there's heaps out there if you google.

Also the paper "A Community Approach to Dog Bite Prevention" talks in depth about what changes can be made to improve matters in this regard. It is located here, scroll down to useful links.

There are other papers out there as well on this topic. Sadly, it takes a lot to convince people to put these sorts of programs in place in stead of BSL, as its seen as a soft option by the gen. pub and they want to see that something is being "done" and they want to see it now! BSL gives them that feeling of something being done now, even though its only a bandaid. Pollies like it for this reason too, as it is a vote winner.

Edited August 22, 2011 by zayda_asher

[chevorne]

Let's also clarify.... They are not an already banned breed, they are a restricted breed.

I'm still undecided as to my position on this. No easy solution, and to hear Karl Stefanovic repeatedly mention cattle dogs this morning made me unsettled.

Also, the above argument somewhere that BSL popularized the breed is not the whole argument, what made them popular was/ is the American tough guy attitude some Aussies aspire to.

Well the heat has certainly gone off the 'Bluey', I always thought it would have been the first banned/restricted breed.

And many dogs bite, many are not excercised or socialised, and many people would not realise their dog is capable under many different circumstances of biting. Jail the owners, things might change a little then.

[Matthew_B]

Know why I don't like the pitbull breed? I was attacked by one. While at a cricket field in the nets doing some batting practice with a mate I was cornered by one of these animals. I tried to walk slowly around it without making any sudden moves, but it blocked my exit from the nets. My mate was lucky enough to climb a fence when he saw the dog coming. I couldn't get out in time. It was barking, snarling, showing its teeth and pinned its ears back - obvious signs of aggression. When it finally made its charge at me, I belted it so hard with my cricket bat that the handle cracked. Luckily for me, the dog limped off very slowly in the opposite direction, bleeding, having decided it was a bad idea to try to attack me after all. The owner was across the street on his verandah watching and laughing until I defended myself. He had the audacity, the arrogance to come and berate me for "assaulting" his dog, saying he was going to "mess me up real good". My mate and I said that if he didn't back off, our first phone call would be to the Police after he met the same side of both our cricket bats as his dog did. He reluctantly backed off, swearing all the way, and once we were safely in the car, we noted the guy's address and reported it to the Police and the local Council. He ended up copping a fairly expensive fine for not having his dangerous dog properly contained in his yard. He also copped a hefty bill from the vet. My mate and I did nothing to provoke that dog - we were just doing cricket practice. These dogs are a menace and have no place in society.

[melzawelza]

I'm sorry to hear you experienced that Matthew, it would have been very frightening.

Your story brings up a few questions and observations though.

How did you know that it was an American Pit Bull Terrier as opposed to the myriad of other breeds and cross breeds that can look very very similar?

Ever think to connect the behaviour of the aggressive, irresponsible, menacing owner with the behaviour of his dog? I would hazard a guess that if he was laughing at his dog threatening you then it is quite likely he has encouraged that behaviour in the past - even something as simple as laughing can be very reinforcing for a dog, let alone if he had actively encouraged it.

His irresponibility shows through this and the fact that the dog was loose. He may have let that dog wander that oval every single day of it's life, and as such the dog felt the oval was part of it's territory that is to be protected. Still no excuse, but again- THE OWNERS FAULT not the dogs.

Sure, maybe the dog was just genetically an aggressive piece of shit, and had become that way through no encouragement or mismanagement or lack of socialisation from it's owner. But based on what you've said and based on WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT DOGS, that is highly unlikely.

Your story has actually proven the opposite to the point you are trying to make, by highlighting the owner.

[geo]

Good post Melza,

I'd hazard a guess that MatthewB wouldn't be able to identify an APBT, or that the story has been somewhat fabricated to justify his view, but i'll take it at face value.

I'd also bet that he didn't plan on having his own argument turned against him.

MatthewB, i do hope now you have managed to learn a little? I was attacked by a collie whislt playing football, it ran onto the park and latched onto my leg good and proper, (i was 10) I do not however want all collies or farm dogs for that matter removed from society.

[Kavik]

Let's also clarify.... They are not an already banned breed, they are a restricted breed.

I'm still undecided as to my position on this. No easy solution, and to hear Karl Stefanovic repeatedly mention cattle dogs this morning made me unsettled.

Also, the above argument somewhere that BSL popularized the breed is not the whole argument, what made them popular was/ is the American tough guy attitude some Aussies aspire to.

They are a restricted breed . . . and it is prohibited to breed them or import them into the country.

[megan_]

Let's also clarify.... They are not an already banned breed, they are a restricted breed.

I'm still undecided as to my position on this. No easy solution, and to hear Karl Stefanovic repeatedly mention cattle dogs this morning made me unsettled.

Also, the above argument somewhere that BSL popularized the breed is not the whole argument, what made them popular was/ is the American tough guy attitude some Aussies aspire to.

They are a restricted breed . . . and it is prohibited to breed them or import them into the country.

There is currently no restriction on breeding crosses though and no management restrictions? Not saying there should be

[k9angel]

Know why I don't like the pitbull breed? I was attacked by one. While at a cricket field in the nets doing some batting practice with a mate I was cornered by one of these animals. I tried to walk slowly around it without making any sudden moves, but it blocked my exit from the nets. My mate was lucky enough to climb a fence when he saw the dog coming. I couldn't get out in time. It was barking, snarling, showing its teeth and pinned its ears back - obvious signs of aggression. When it finally made its charge at me, I belted it so hard with my cricket bat that the handle cracked. Luckily for me, the dog limped off very slowly in the opposite direction, bleeding, having decided it was a bad idea to try to attack me after all. The owner was across the street on his verandah watching and laughing until I defended myself. He had the audacity, the arrogance to come and berate me for "assaulting" his dog, saying he was going to "mess me up real good". My mate and I said that if he didn't back off, our first phone call would be to the Police after he met the same side of both our cricket bats as his dog did. He reluctantly backed off, swearing all the way, and once we were safely in the car, we noted the guy's address and reported it to the Police and the local Council. He ended up copping a fairly expensive fine for not having his dangerous dog properly contained in his yard. He also copped a hefty bill from the vet. My mate and I did nothing to provoke that dog - we were just doing cricket practice. These dogs are a menace and have no place in society.

I was going to ask earlier on whether you'd had a bad experience with one as you really seem to have a grudge against them big time.

I guess the above post answers that question.

The owner of the dog was obviously a bogan - to be laughing at you as his dog bailed you up like that.

This is what we are trying to say. In most cases it is the hands they end up in.

The bogans, the wanna-be macho's.

It's really sad that you had to experience that and I imagine it would of been very scary. But think, if that twit of an owner had of kept that dog at home, like a responsible owner would - and not let him out to roam to the park - you wouldn't of been bailed up to begin with. And if the dog had of been socialised properly, chances are he would of came running at you with a wagging tail - not snarling teeth.

Also whose to say the dogs owner hadn't abused it before? let's face it - he sounds like an absolute bogan who obviously didn't care for the wellbeing and safety of a fellow human being, laughing like that - and he couldn't of cared too much about his dog, letting him out to roam. Maybe the dog felt threatened in some way, seeing you there with a cricket bat???

[Silvawilow]

Know why I don't like the pitbull breed? I was attacked by one.

My mate and I did nothing to provoke that dog - we were just doing cricket practice. These dogs are a menace and have no place in society.

That's an awful experience to have to go through.

I've had a similar experience with a Lab - jumped into our yard while my sisters and I were playing when we were still in early primary school, it bit me on the arm and then turned on my sister and pinned her on the ground and bit her multiple times - this dog was not provoked in any way - it was just roaming the streets owned by a moron.

Do I like Labs - No. Do I think they should be banned or restricted - No. However, the more and more I read what people in here are saying I do think there should be some form of compulsory education for all new dog owners, regardless of breed.

[LizT]

Let's also clarify.... They are not an already banned breed, they are a restricted breed.

I'm still undecided as to my position on this. No easy solution, and to hear Karl Stefanovic repeatedly mention cattle dogs this morning made me unsettled.

Also, the above argument somewhere that BSL popularized the breed is not the whole argument, what made them popular was/ is the American tough guy attitude some Aussies aspire to.

They are a restricted breed . . . and it is prohibited to breed them or import them into the country.

....and yet probably as common and as young as many a drink driver.

Actually with the whole "Public Education" situation being talked about I do see alot of parallels within the two issues...responsible dog ownership and drink driving. IMO education does not seem to have the desired impact on a certain demographic of the general Public in either case.

When I did pre natal classes 22 years ago the midwife talked about the family dog and the introduction of a baby and interaction with toddlers was discussed at "New mum" classes, and dogs and pre-schoolers was a topic in which "Experts' were brought in to talk to mums and dads at kinders. So it's not like the education is not happening, but who is "listening in class" and who has "deaf ears"???

[zayda_asher]

When I did pre natal classes 22 years ago the midwife talked about the family dog and the introduction of a baby and interaction with toddlers was discussed at "New mum" classes, and dogs and pre-schoolers was a topic in which "Experts' were brought in to talk to mums and dads at kinders. So it's not like the education is not happening, but who is "listening in class" and who has "deaf ears"???

It often only happens if someone has an interest in it and brings the topic into those venues, its certainly not across the board as a standard.

[Aidan3]

I've been attacked by people before. People are a menace and should be banned.

[Matthew_B]

Good post Melza,

I'd hazard a guess that MatthewB wouldn't be able to identify an APBT, or that the story has been somewhat fabricated to justify his view, but i'll take it at face value.

I'd also bet that he didn't plan on having his own argument turned against him.

MatthewB, i do hope now you have managed to learn a little? I was attacked by a collie whislt playing football, it ran onto the park and latched onto my leg good and proper, (i was 10) I do not however want all collies or farm dogs for that matter removed from society.

I didn't have to identify the dog, even though I knew what breed it was. The reason I didn't have to identify it - the dog was registered with the council and the owner registered it in plain black and white that it was a pitbull...

[Matthew_B]

I've been attacked by people before. People are a menace and should be banned.

Are you under the age of 6?

[Matthew_B]

Know why I don't like the pitbull breed? I was attacked by one. While at a cricket field in the nets doing some batting practice with a mate I was cornered by one of these animals. I tried to walk slowly around it without making any sudden moves, but it blocked my exit from the nets. My mate was lucky enough to climb a fence when he saw the dog coming. I couldn't get out in time. It was barking, snarling, showing its teeth and pinned its ears back - obvious signs of aggression. When it finally made its charge at me, I belted it so hard with my cricket bat that the handle cracked. Luckily for me, the dog limped off very slowly in the opposite direction, bleeding, having decided it was a bad idea to try to attack me after all. The owner was across the street on his verandah watching and laughing until I defended myself. He had the audacity, the arrogance to come and berate me for "assaulting" his dog, saying he was going to "mess me up real good". My mate and I said that if he didn't back off, our first phone call would be to the Police after he met the same side of both our cricket bats as his dog did. He reluctantly backed off, swearing all the way, and once we were safely in the car, we noted the guy's address and reported it to the Police and the local Council. He ended up copping a fairly expensive fine for not having his dangerous dog properly contained in his yard. He also copped a hefty bill from the vet. My mate and I did nothing to provoke that dog - we were just doing cricket practice. These dogs are a menace and have no place in society.

I was going to ask earlier on whether you'd had a bad experience with one as you really seem to have a grudge against them big time.

I guess the above post answers that question.

The owner of the dog was obviously a bogan - to be laughing at you as his dog bailed you up like that.

This is what we are trying to say. In most cases it is the hands they end up in.

The bogans, the wanna-be macho's.

It's really sad that you had to experience that and I imagine it would of been very scary. But think, if that twit of an owner had of kept that dog at home, like a responsible owner would - and not let him out to roam to the park - you wouldn't of been bailed up to begin with. And if the dog had of been socialised properly, chances are he would of came running at you with a wagging tail - not snarling teeth.

Also whose to say the dogs owner hadn't abused it before? let's face it - he sounds like an absolute bogan who obviously didn't care for the wellbeing and safety of a fellow human being, laughing like that - and he couldn't of cared too much about his dog, letting him out to roam. Maybe the dog felt threatened in some way, seeing you there with a cricket bat???

I was in the nets of the cricket field across the road from the "bogans" house, with the nets being atleast 150m from even the road. I fail to see how the dog could have felt threatened nearly 200m from its "territory" - AFTER wandering over to us. We'd been there for nearly 2 hours before the dog came out of its yard.