Child Killed By Dog

[sariluda]

I am astonished that so many of you continue to defend such a vicious, dangerous breed of dog. This is a breed that has been bred for one purpose only - to fight. There is no need for a fighting dog in modern society. Yes, other dogs can snap, but the statistics are stark. Even though pitbull breeds are vastly outnumbered in comparison to other dog breeds in our homes (more people have GR's or Lab's than a pitbull breed as family pet), they are by far the most prolific breed involved in deaths and maimings. It's got absolutely nothing at all to do with how the dog is raised or how it is treated. It's the dogs' primitive instinct to fight. Sure, some may be placid and never snap. But in my opinion, it's a risk that is not worth taking. That little girl died a terrifying, truly horrific and painful death right in front of her mother because someone wanted to have a fighting dog as their pet. There can be no excuses for the owner. This tragedy was completely preventable - if the owner of that dog had a non-fighting breed of dog, the chances are very slim to nil that this attack would have occurred. As far as I am concerned, in the eyes of the law a person who owns a fighting dog that kills or maims should be treated in the same category as owning a gun. It's time for tough penalties for owners of these dogs. A strong deterrent is required to stop people from breeding or buying these horrible dogs. The sooner they are extinct, the better off we'll all be.

FFS Mathew stop your harping and non sense dribble! The dog was a crossbreed, you can not compare and keep blaming the APBT. I've said It before dogs are not born killers they are made by humans, you're targeting the wrong end. This Is not a breed related problem, but a human one

How many times does it have to be said they have never been bred for human aggression! NEVER

Cross two breeds of unknown origin/history and you get what??? Nothing but a lucky dip

I am not blaming the APBT - I am blaming ALL breeds of pitbull. There's just no need, no use, no justification for having one of these fighting dogs. They are trouble just waiting to happen. BIG trouble.

Who knows it may have been a labrador crossed with a poodle, did anyboby see the dog? The media seem's to be so sure that it was a ASBT/APBT? But was there DNA testing done on the dog? no! so how does anybody know what breed or cross breed it was. Ban the owners not the breed.

Edited August 19, 2011 by sariluda

[raz]

Great. This sort of stupidity is all the dog world in Aus needs right now. Unbelievable. All it will take is for some twit to run with that on monday

Linda Watson, who is doing a PhD degree on ''dog-bite injury and the effect of regulation'', said the term ''pit bull'' had become a generic one, to include dogs such as Staffordshire terriers, English bull terriers, bulldogs, even boxers.

The term pit bull had come to mean ''any small- to middle-sized, short-haired, muscular dog'', she said

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/death-of-girl-forces-new-thinking-at-dog-review-20110819-1j2da.html#ixzz1VVcv7Hv3

Edited August 19, 2011 by raz

[LizT]

With regard to these lovely touchy feely UTUBE videos of children and babies playing with the familys sleeping Pit bulls and sitting on them etc. whilst a very demonstrative way of showing that these animals are not savage (at that particular moment) I personally would not let my babies, children or any child for that matter do that to ANY breed of dog, not poodle not CKCS and not my GSD. I have a lovely photo of my elsest daughter when aged 3 laying by the fireside curled up next to our GSD, both sleeping. But I would not let a baby or toddler wack, smack and expore or sit on any sleeping dog.

It is not what I would call RESPONSIBLE PET OWNERSHIP.

[montall]

Yep, had a look at the video, but had to turn it off about half way through, couldn't cope with the loud music.

I admit they are awesome dogs and I totally agree that when dog attacks happen owners are more often than not more at fault than the dogs but unfortunately these dogs appeal to a certain type of owner. I don't know what the answer is, and I get that banning a particular breed probably isn't the answer either, but my point was that it feels a little hypocritical to say that we shouldn't have designer dogs because there are so many nice pure breeds to chose from and then fight like mad to hold on to one breed that rightly or wrongly is seen as being dangerous when once again we have so many other nice breeds to chose from. I used the term 'pit bull type' rather than just 'pit bull' because it seems to me that whenever these serious attacks occur they are usually mixed breed dogs, but if we can believe what we hear one of the mixes is nearly always pit bull.

Maybe if we no longer had pit bulls these sort of owners would just turn to another breed, like someone mentioned, but there must be something about the breed that other breeds don't have for people who like to fight dogs to chose them over other breeds in the first place. I dunno, just thinking aloud really.

[Tapferhund]

Yep, had a look at the video, but had to turn it off about half way through, couldn't cope with the loud music.

I admit they are awesome dogs and I totally agree that when dog attacks happen owners are more often than not more at fault than the dogs but unfortunately these dogs appeal to a certain type of owner. I don't know what the answer is, and I get that banning a particular breed probably isn't the answer either, but my point was that it feels a little hypocritical to say that we shouldn't have designer dogs because there are so many nice pure breeds to chose from and then fight like mad to hold on to one breed that rightly or wrongly is seen as being dangerous when once again we have so many other nice breeds to chose from. I used the term 'pit bull type' rather than just 'pit bull' because it seems to me that whenever these serious attacks occur they are usually mixed breed dogs, but if we can believe what we hear one of the mixes is nearly always pit bull.

Maybe if we no longer had pit bulls these sort of owners would just turn to another breed, like someone mentioned, but there must be something about the breed that other breeds don't have for people who like to fight dogs to chose them over other breeds in the first place. I dunno, just thinking aloud really.

They will turn to American Bulldogs...another disaster waiting to happen.

[korbin13]

Very long thread, so I will apologise in advance if this link has already been posted.

The article is about the failure of BSL. I understand that the NCRC has a vested interest but the article itself is sound in my opinion as it does cite its references. I tried to find the link of the Netherlands report about BSL but you had to pay for it!

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/World-wide%20Failure%20of%20BSL.pdf

[Adnil444]

You can Imagine It with any of our other med - large powerful breeds too, and you did say those magic words Untrained and Chained

Enough to cause problems for many a dog don't you agree

I can, but I'm just pointing out the fact that aggressive APBT-looking dogs are particularly scary, and to see a trained one pulling a pallet of bricks and biting a tyre three metres off the ground doesn't make them less scary.

You know what scares me?

People like Matthew B, who is a good representation of the general public's view about pit bulls and dog attacks, that seem to think that only certain breeds or types of dogs can bite, hurt and attack people, children, other dogs and animals.

THAT attitude is truly terrifying.

I wish people would focus on the fact that any dog can and will bite and that dog attacks are completely preventable.

I think that Matthew_B pretty well sums up the majority view. Dog attacks get reported in the media only when they are the most severe, ie from the most powerful dogs. People think about this quite simply: it is a combination of powerful dogs and bad owners, so lets get rid of the dogs and punish the owners.

Most people agree that dog attacks are preventable - what they want is to take away the weapon from the idiot. Exactly the same as P-platers and WRXs.

If you dismiss M_B's view, as has been done at length, then how will you convince everyone else that thinks like that?

I agree black dog - this is how the general public feel. Your last sentence is so true. In relation to the other quotes, people don't want to hear that any dog can bite - yes that is not the issue - the smaller the dog the smaller the damage. I know I would rather be attached by a maltese than a bully breed or other large breed. Yes most attacks are preventable, but how do educate the ones that just don't care? I don't know the answer but we could start by getting rid of internet sites that allow people to sell these dogs, maybe being able to prosecute any "breeder" of these dogs, regardless if they have sold the dog on, ensure that pet shops are not allowed to sell puppies. Ensure that every dog is registered - if that means councils doing door knocks - I don't know.

[Adnil444]

I say ban stupid people from owning dogs! So many idiots own dogs they dont excerise or discipline. They give them no boundaries or any affection, they stick them in the backyard like a garden ornament then bitch and moan when the dog gets unruley or distructive.

Unfortunately there is an element of society who are drawn to these powerful breeds such as the APBT, they arent drawn to the hand knitted yappy dogs and unfortunately for the APBT they dont do the work required to have a well balanced loving APBT. Heck there are plenty of people out there who dont do the work to have well balanced dog of any breed of dog, but it seems most other breeds dont attack to KILL like these type of dogs seems to do.

So until we as a society stop tolerating those around us who dont adequately care for the dogs, no matter what the breed (and I mean those who dont walk their dogs, socialise their dogs, discipline and love their dogs as family members not just garden ornaments) then I'm afraid I think that to protect the community in city areas then APBT, their crosses and perhaps even breeds of that type should be banned.

What I dont understand though, is how are they getting these dogs? In Victoria as of 2 Nov 2005 it is an offence to acquire a restricted breed dog, it is an offence to import a Pit Bull, they must be desexed, and you cant sell your dog to another Victorian. So clearly there are plenty of people out there committing an offence by obtaining these dogs in the first place!

Hi Sconski - agree - you only have to look at websites like gumtree to see that it is quite easy to get these types of dogs, even though they are restricted. Perhaps if these sites like gumtree were held accountable - better still, ban all selling of dogs/puppies over the internet.

[Tapua]

I would think that the problem with this breed is not the breed but the people who own the breed (and this applies to MANY MANY breeds (GSD, Rotty, ACD breeders have all had contact with people who are attracted to aggressive displays by their breed or any cross breeds) The lowest common denominator in the dog world IMO is not the dog but its owner. In this tragic case of the child being killed - the dog in question - came into their home - approached the children - bite a number of them and killed the child. My god - the DOG came into the home from next door.Doesnt the %%$#@@! owner has any accountability for this situation!

The fact a dog of any breed has teeth and can bite is always an issue but I dont expect a pit bull to come into my yard but it did happen. My concern with the Bully, Pit, Mastif Terrier or any cross breed of the same is their stubborn determination to bull doze through a fence to get to what they want. About 12 months ago a register APBT pushed through our netted fence - it found a small hole and chewed through the fencing to get at my dogs.

THANK GOD it just wanted to play with my guys and was friendly to the dogs but I was alerted to him in my yard when my dogs were barking in an unusual way. I looked out the window to find a young male medium sized tan Pit Bull playing with my dogs. OK thats fine - they were not fighting - no drama there so I come outside and call my dogs away (which they did immediately) and I placed them in a separate yard. On spotting me the dog went from playfull to excessively timid and growling. Obviously not socialised with people it was an unstable dog. I backed off - my dogs were safe and the ranger came and removed the dog - the dog was extreemely aggressive to the ranger.

The owner has been given a dangerous dog order - it must be contained and walked on lead with a muzzle and the owner just didnt get that while the dog was fine with his family - he says - when out of his domain it was an unsocialised and dangerous dog. There was no harm to myself or my dogs which was more luck than mangement but the ignorance of the owner about dog behaviour just amazed me and just reinforces my opinion of some of the idiots who think they have a right to own an unsocialised, unstable dog. Regardless of the breed.

[cybergenesis]

I must admit that I would like to get my hands on an aggressive dog for guard dog purposes. I live in a very rough, high crime area, and I would like to get a very protective, territorial dog for my own protection.

I don't believe in the banning of any breed, I believe in responsible dog ownership and accountability of the owners for their dogs. Fatal dog attacks are still a very rare, freak occurrence.

I mean if somebody chains up a dog in their back yard, and frequently belts it, and never socializes it with people (especially children), and in general is an aggressive "bogan" type of owner, no breed banning legislation is going to protect the public. In the freak event that a vicious attack occurs, it makes sense to hold the owner strongly legally accountable.

But as I said, I am actually interested in a dog with the potential to attack people, for my own sense of security and protection, which I think is my right. I have a very secure backyard and already own a dog, and my dog has never escaped before (and never will), but my current dog, is not the right sort of dog to use as a guard dog.

As for "pit bulls" and any other sort of dog, I am 100% against banning ANY breed. I am also against compulsory desexing of dogs, because I prefer the temperament of a non-desexed animal.

I think that owning a dog that suits you is one of the best things about life- a very important part of life for many people. I am tired of this ban this, ban that nanny state the country has become. It is a tragedy that a child has been killed, and the bloody owner should be sent to prison. And yes if an aggressive dog is found wandering unrestrained around the streets, then the bloody owner should face serious consequences. But what can you do, when people are so stupid that they can't secure their own poorly raised, aggressive dogs? And for the record I've been attacked by a pitbull before and only just escaped injury, I blame for the owners, not the dog. In that case, the owners were irresponsible bogan junkies. When I told them their dog had attacked me they threatened to smash me and told me to "f" off. I kicked their dog with such force in the head (more than once) that it flipped over backwards, but immediately (without an instant of hesitation) got back up and attempted to attack me again. I was nearly hit by a car backing off into the main road to escape.

Edited August 20, 2011 by cybergenesis

[Tapferhund]

I must admit that I would like to get my hands on an aggressive dog for guard dog purposes. I live in a very rough, high crime area, and I would like to get a very protective, territorial dog for my own protection.

I don't believe in the banning of any breed, I believe in responsible dog ownership and accountability of the owners for their dogs. Fatal dog attacks are still a very rare, freak occurrence.

I mean if somebody chains up a dog in their back yard, and frequently belts it, and never socializes it with people (especially children), and in general is an aggressive "bogan" type of owner, no breed banning legislation is going to protect the public. In the freak event that a vicious attack occurs, it makes sense to hold the owner strongly legally accountable.

But as I said, I am actually interested in a dog with the potential to attack people, for my own sense of security and protection, which I think is my right. I have a very secure backyard and already own a dog, and my dog has never escaped before (and never will), but my current dog, is not the right sort of dog to use as a guard dog.

As for "pit bulls" and any other sort of dog, I am 100% against banning ANY breed. I am also against compulsory desexing of dogs, because I prefer the temperament of a non-desexed animal.

I think that owning a dog that suits you is one of the best things about life- a very important part of life for many people. I am tired of this ban this, ban that nanny state the country has become. It is a tragedy that a child has been killed, and the bloody owner should be sent to prison. And yes if an aggressive dog is found wandering unrestrained around the streets, then the bloody owner should face serious consequences. But what can you do, when people are so stupid that they can't secure their own poorly raised, aggressive dogs? And for the record I've been attacked by a pitbull before and only just escaped injury, I blame for the owners, not the dog. In that case, the owners were irresponsible bogan junkies. When I told them their dog had attacked me they threatened to smash me and told me to "f" off. I kicked their dog with such force in the head (more than once) that it flipped over backwards, but immediately (without an instant of hesitation) got back up and attempted to attack me again. I was nearly hit by a car backing off into the main road to escape.

Excellent post and I agree with everything said...but bl**dy hell in regard to the last couple of sentences...I think its time you moved !

[DerRottweiler]

I must admit that I would like to get my hands on an aggressive dog for guard dog purposes. I live in a very rough, high crime area, and I would like to get a very protective, territorial dog for my own protection.

I don't believe in the banning of any breed, I believe in responsible dog ownership and accountability of the owners for their dogs. Fatal dog attacks are still a very rare, freak occurrence.

I mean if somebody chains up a dog in their back yard, and frequently belts it, and never socializes it with people (especially children), and in general is an aggressive "bogan" type of owner, no breed banning legislation is going to protect the public. In the freak event that a vicious attack occurs, it makes sense to hold the owner strongly legally accountable.

But as I said, I am actually interested in a dog with the potential to attack people, for my own sense of security and protection, which I think is my right. I have a very secure backyard and already own a dog, and my dog has never escaped before (and never will), but my current dog, is not the right sort of dog to use as a guard dog.

As for "pit bulls" and any other sort of dog, I am 100% against banning ANY breed. I am also against compulsory desexing of dogs, because I prefer the temperament of a non-desexed animal.

I think that owning a dog that suits you is one of the best things about life- a very important part of life for many people. I am tired of this ban this, ban that nanny state the country has become. It is a tragedy that a child has been killed, and the bloody owner should be sent to prison. And yes if an aggressive dog is found wandering unrestrained around the streets, then the bloody owner should face serious consequences. But what can you do, when people are so stupid that they can't secure their own poorly raised, aggressive dogs? And for the record I've been attacked by a pitbull before and only just escaped injury, I blame for the owners, not the dog. In that case, the owners were irresponsible bogan junkies. When I told them their dog had attacked me they threatened to smash me and told me to "f" off. I kicked their dog with such force in the head (more than once) that it flipped over backwards, but immediately (without an instant of hesitation) got back up and attempted to attack me again. I was nearly hit by a car backing off into the main road to escape.

I think what you want is within your rights (the state of Victoria would disagree). However, a proper guard dog is cool, calm and collected. It knows exactly what it is doing and isn't what I call 'stupid' aggressive.

[JoeK]

What people not understanding is plenty of the irrisponsible dog owners with all differnt breeds of dog who leave open the gate, dont do the training or socialise, and dont do much on the dog but feeding him, is plenty of these people and all this dogs they have got teeth.

I agree on the dog attack is the owners fault is true but you ask the question of yourself, why is most of the attacks from these irrisponsible people happen with the bull breeding when they owning every other breed as well. Being irrisponsible owner doesnt make dog attack, the attack is in the dog and the irrisponsible bring the attack to the victim faster.

Joe

[Aidan3]

why is most of the attacks from these irrisponsible people happen with the bull breeding when they owning every other breed as well.

In order to answer that question satisfactorily, we need to know two things:

1. whether 'most of the attacks' in Australia are due to Bull breeds

2. whether the irresponsible people are more likely to own Bull breeds

If the answer to both questions is 'yes', then you can see one of the main reasons why BSL hasn't worked in the past.

[Adnil444]

I must admit that I would like to get my hands on an aggressive dog for guard dog purposes. I live in a very rough, high crime area, and I would like to get a very protective, territorial dog for my own protection.

I don't believe in the banning of any breed, I believe in responsible dog ownership and accountability of the owners for their dogs. Fatal dog attacks are still a very rare, freak occurrence.

I mean if somebody chains up a dog in their back yard, and frequently belts it, and never socializes it with people (especially children), and in general is an aggressive "bogan" type of owner, no breed banning legislation is going to protect the public. In the freak event that a vicious attack occurs, it makes sense to hold the owner strongly legally accountable.

But as I said, I am actually interested in a dog with the potential to attack people, for my own sense of security and protection, which I think is my right. I have a very secure backyard and already own a dog, and my dog has never escaped before (and never will), but my current dog, is not the right sort of dog to use as a guard dog.

As for "pit bulls" and any other sort of dog, I am 100% against banning ANY breed. I am also against compulsory desexing of dogs, because I prefer the temperament of a non-desexed animal.

I think that owning a dog that suits you is one of the best things about life- a very important part of life for many people. I am tired of this ban this, ban that nanny state the country has become. It is a tragedy that a child has been killed, and the bloody owner should be sent to prison. And yes if an aggressive dog is found wandering unrestrained around the streets, then the bloody owner should face serious consequences. But what can you do, when people are so stupid that they can't secure their own poorly raised, aggressive dogs? And for the record I've been attacked by a pitbull before and only just escaped injury, I blame for the owners, not the dog. In that case, the owners were irresponsible bogan junkies. When I told them their dog had attacked me they threatened to smash me and told me to "f" off. I kicked their dog with such force in the head (more than once) that it flipped over backwards, but immediately (without an instant of hesitation) got back up and attempted to attack me again. I was nearly hit by a car backing off into the main road to escape.

Wow - those last sentences - was that dog reported? It should be put down IMO and the owners fined - heavily. Imagine if you were a child - you'd probably be dead. BSL isn't working but I don't know what will work. I can understand you wanting a protective guard dog. There is no better protection than a good dog. My dogs always alert me to anything going on outside, but stop immediately once whatever it was has moved on (usually just people walking past) or coming up my driveway. But they don't go any further than a alerting me. I'm not sure what they would do if real danger was presented. And I couldn't agree more about owning a dog that suits is one of the best things in life - that's why I don't understand why these bogans have these dogs, just keep them in the backyard and never interacting with them - where is the joy in that for both the dog and the owner? Why bother.

[sandgrubber]

The problem with 'deed not breed' is that once the deed happens, it may be too late. The killer dog in this story had no previous, and I gather he was well fenced in.

As endlessly pointed out, the problem with breed specific legislation is that breed is not a good predictor of aggression, and breed is often hard to determine. As also endlessly pointed out, aggression is not random: some breeds have higher tendencies to be DA or HA; more power = more damage; poor training, lack of exercise, abuse, etc. will bring out the worst in dogs who might otherwise not be aggressive.

To make it worse still, whatever regulations are set forward are going to be hard to police, given the resources and mindset of most Councils.

Can anyone offer a good solution?

[WoofnHoof]

Can anyone offer a good solution?

Licensing owners and making them pass a test or do a course to ensure they are aware of the basics of animal ownership and management. It may not solve the problem but I think it would address some aspects, ie the lack of awareness some owners have of the importance of socialisation and the correlation between various animal management practices (or lack thereof) and dog attacks.

Enforced education is the only effective path forward that I can see, you can still have people breaking the laws but the vast majority of people, even people that want to own an agressive dog, still don't want to see their dog responsible for an attack on a child. Currently not enough people know what those risk factors are. Currently no one needs to know anything about animals before owning one.

[Clyde]

Can anyone offer a good solution?

Licensing owners and making them pass a test or do a course to ensure they are aware of the basics of animal ownership and management. I

They do that to get your breeding prefix but there are still many, many dodgy breeders out there. I don't think it would help much

[WoofnHoof]

Can anyone offer a good solution?

Licensing owners and making them pass a test or do a course to ensure they are aware of the basics of animal ownership and management. I

They do that to get your breeding prefix but there are still many, many dodgy breeders out there. I don't think it would help much

There are but they get away with it because they rely on the ignorance of the general public, once the general public becomes educated too it's not as easy to pull the wool over their eyes.

[Clyde]

True. But will gen public ever be educated?