Child Killed By Dog

[ravenau1]

Anyone have any idea where I can get a copy of the Karen Delise book Poodlefan mentioned? In Aust anyway as I can only find copies in the US at US$100+. She has another book called 'The Pitbull Placebo' which is a free download that I already nabbed as it looks interesting.

[RottnBullies]

Oh God that made me cringe. That video does the breed no favours with it's heavy metal, head banging music and proving just how powerful and tenacious bull breeds are. The small handful of clips showing Pits doing obedience are good but the rest I couldn't even finish it the bogan music was grinding in to my brain.

I've maintained from year dot that some ABPT fanciers are the breeds worst enemies. They simply cannot seem to fathom that they are part of the breed's "reputation problems".

Why

Everything those dogs did was sport, they are not a lap dog, they are a working dog, they were doing no harm to anyone except for enjoying some of their activities. Well respected supporters and advocates of the APBT partake In most of those sports

I see no harm In that, just because It's something you wouldn't do with most other breeds doesn't make It wrong and shouldn't be seen as damaging their reputation, It's what makes them what they are a very agile athletic dog

[poodlefan]

Why

Everything those dogs did was sport, they are not a lap dog, they are a working dog, they were doing no harm to anyone except for enjoying some of their activities. Well respected supporters and advocates of the APBT partake In most of those sports

I see no harm In that, just because It's something you wouldn't do with most other breeds doesn't make It wrong and shouldn't be seen as damaging their reputation, It's what makes them what they are a very agile athletic dog

Pitbulls haven't "worked" legally for many years. They no longer perform their original function and much as I would never sanction nor condone dog fighting, frankly I think its part of the problem because the human aggression that would have been ruthlessly culled in the breed is now encouraged by a small proportion of fanciers (and that's the start of the problem)

Then we have the type of folk attracted to the breed for the wrong reasons. The tough macho types who give their dogs tough names and drape them in studs and leather and apppear to enjoy them intimidating others.

Its one thing to admire the breed for its courage and tenancity and another entirely to encourage manifestations of anti-social behaviour in the dogs.

Sadly, BSL has shut down opportunities for these dogs to attend training in most states but we hardly ever see them at our dog club where they'd have the opportunity to be good ambassadors for the breed.

The "circle the wagons and stuff everyone else" paradigm adopted by the breeds defenders in the anti-BSL fight didn't help either.

But none of this means that the dogs are inherently dangerous.. lets not lose sight of that. Half the time the dog they use as the testing dog in temperament tests on shows like Animal Cops is a pitbull... a happy, tail waggy friendly dog.

Edited August 19, 2011 by poodlefan

[Tapferhund]

PitBulls have a very bad reputation in society. Just imagine trying to sell your house and telling the prospective buyers that your next door neighbour has one or two Pitbulls. They are one of the most feared type of dog in modern society. Now a pitbull type has slaughtered a small child, someone's baby. What good is a having a dog that has to be confined for fear of it attacking an animal or human ? My opinion is this type of dog has no place in society. Do the dogs suffer because they have bad owners that don't know what to do ? Yes. Do we need these dogs ? No.

Certain humans have no place In society either, shall we exterminate them too!

Hehe.......if only we could !!! :D

I have to admit R&B , when it comes to my own dogs ,pitties do worry me. We have a fair few PBs ,staffies and crosses thereof around our area...,many of which are loose at the front of their properties.......so these days because of it I rarely take the pleasure to walk my dogs . Instead I drive them to local parks to exercise them. I also believe that once pitties are off the scene.....the next bull breed to take their place in trouble will be the American Bulldog. I am seeing more and more of this breed and none seem to have a very nice disposition.

[Clyde]

It's what makes them what they are a very agile athletic dog

General public don't give a rats about that - if anything it puts another notch of fear in every mothers mind. All I see from that clip are dogs that can clear average fencing, love to grab things with their jaws as if their lives depended on it and are fit enough to outrun any human and knock a child to the ground. Sure, 2 of my own dogs could do all those things, but you need to think how non doggy people think if you want to save your breed.

Being 'agile and athletic' does not make a dog safe.

[corrie]

PitBulls have a very bad reputation in society. Just imagine trying to sell your house and telling the prospective buyers that your next door neighbour has one or two Pitbulls. They are one of the most feared type of dog in modern society. Now a pitbull type has slaughtered a small child, someone's baby. What good is a having a dog that has to be confined for fear of it attacking an animal or human ? My opinion is this type of dog has no place in society. Do the dogs suffer because they have bad owners that don't know what to do ? Yes. Do we need these dogs ? No.

Certain humans have no place In society either, shall we exterminate them too!

Hehe.......if only we could !!! :D

I have to admit R&B , when it comes to my own dogs ,pitties do worry me. We have a fair few PBs ,staffies and crosses thereof around our area...,many of which are loose at the front of their properties.......so these days because of it I rarely take the pleasure to walk my dogs . Instead I drive them to local parks to exercise them. I also believe that once pitties are off the scene.....the next bull breed to take their place in trouble will be the American Bulldog. I am seeing more and more of this breed and none seem to have a very nice disposition.

To me this is an issue that keeps getting brushed over.

Among many other things I think raising fines for dogs not being secured on a persons property/ wandering and having better enforcment of this would help reduce dog attacks on people, pets and the risk they pose to motorists.

[Tapferhund]

PitBulls have a very bad reputation in society. Just imagine trying to sell your house and telling the prospective buyers that your next door neighbour has one or two Pitbulls. They are one of the most feared type of dog in modern society. Now a pitbull type has slaughtered a small child, someone's baby. What good is a having a dog that has to be confined for fear of it attacking an animal or human ? My opinion is this type of dog has no place in society. Do the dogs suffer because they have bad owners that don't know what to do ? Yes. Do we need these dogs ? No.

Certain humans have no place In society either, shall we exterminate them too!

Hehe.......if only we could !!! :D

I have to admit R&B , when it comes to my own dogs ,pitties do worry me. We have a fair few PBs ,staffies and crosses thereof around our area...,many of which are loose at the front of their properties.......so these days because of it I rarely take the pleasure to walk my dogs . Instead I drive them to local parks to exercise them. I also believe that once pitties are off the scene.....the next bull breed to take their place in trouble will be the American Bulldog. I am seeing more and more of this breed and none seem to have a very nice disposition.

To me this is an issue that keeps getting brushed over.

Among many other things I think raising fines for dogs not being secured on a persons property/ wandering and having better enforcment of this would help reduce dog attacks on people, pets and the risk they pose to motorists.

Totally agree Corrie!

[Matthew_B]

Wow, sheer lunacy! If we believed you, every Police Dog Squad member and security guard dog unit would be suffering numerous injuries caused by their dogs. The fact that they don't is because the breeds selected are those which can be trained to restrain their aggressiveness and to attack only when commanded. The pitbull that killed the little girl that is the subject of this topic could not be stopped no matter what.

The dog that killed this little girl wasn't a pitbull Matthew and you know it.

The overwhelming majority of individuals of breeds used for police and security work fail the grade for a range of reasons. BTW, dog bites are pretty common in dog handlers.

Which part of "because some pitbulls might be dangerous doesn't mean ALL of them are" can't you grasp.

Some Labradors are dangerous Matthew. Seriously scarey dogs. Doesnt mean all of them are and you're in a better position than most to know it.

But take a poorly bred Labrador, fail to socialise it to recognise children as somethign other than prey, fail to teach it bite inhibition, fail to keep it in a manner that sees it form good social bonds with people, fail to train it to come back when its called and fail to exercise it regularly and you've got a recipe for a dangerous dog. The breed matters only as far as size and power go. It matter as far as bite thresholds and bite inhibitions go. It also matter as far as drives go. Crossbreed it with other large and powerful dogs and your capacity to know what its drives and inhibitions are decreases exponentially.

But none of those qualities is restriced to particular breeds, nor shared by all individuals within a breed. Assuming so is the path to disaster and that's the path that BSL takes.

Labradors weren't bred for fighting. Pitbulls were and are.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Matthew, why can't you understand what people are telling you about fighting dogs? I'll explain again. PBs were bred to fight dogs, dog aggression and human aggression are two different things. The dogs bred for dog fighting were also bred to be good with people, because they didn't want the dogs biting them, just other dogs. The human aggression seen in some PBs is not because they were originally fighting dogs, it's because they are raised by morons who don't socialise their dogs properly. ANY bred can do the same if they are not raised correctly, there are many breeds and crosses that bite humans IF THEY ARE RAISED BY MORONS.

[Matthew_B]

Matthew, why can't you understand what people are telling you about fighting dogs? I'll explain again. PBs were bred to fight dogs, dog aggression and human aggression are two different things. The dogs bred for dog fighting were also bred to be good with people, because they didn't want the dogs biting them, just other dogs. The human aggression seen in some PBs is not because they were originally fighting dogs, it's because they are raised by morons who don't socialise their dogs properly. ANY bred can do the same if they are not raised correctly, there are many breeds and crosses that bite humans IF THEY ARE RAISED BY MORONS.

So whenever we see a pitbull (or any fighting dog for that matter) in the news that has maimed or killed someone, it's the owner's fault, not the dogs' fault? That's absolute rubbish, and you know it!

[poodlefan]

So whenever we see a pitbull (or any fighting dog for that matter) in the news that has maimed or killed someone, it's the owner's fault, not the dogs' fault? That's absolute rubbish, and you know it!

No Matthew is isn't.

Owners buy dogs from poor breeding. Owners fail to socialise, fail to train and fail to desex. They encourage some behaviours and fail to discourage others. They fail to exercise and fail to meet dog's needs.

Owners fail to contain dogs.

And owners fail to control dogs.

How you can suggest that when a dog kills is ISN'T the owners fault sure beats the hell out of me.

It doesn't matter what a dog was bred for IF that dog harms others. And if it does, then its owner must be held responsible.

Edited August 19, 2011 by poodlefan

[Angelina]

Sorry, I just don't think the argument of its not a purebred Pit bull is helping your cause

they are being identified as pitbull crosses, to the general public they look like pitbulls, they seem to have pitbull in them...

yes, it is a mongrel, but that is not what the general public are hearing or seeing

they are not seeing a labrador cross killing a child, they are seeing a pitbull cross doing that,

It is about being factual. If it was a cross breed then it was not an APBT. Simple.

So now to eradicate cross breeds?

Isn't it factual though that a lot of these attacks, have Pitbull in the breed ....

the dog was identified as Rotweiller in one, if it was a labrador cross that would be factual ... it is a Pitbull cross, its factual

just because its not a purebred pitbull ... doesn't mean, you can argue, it wasn't a pitbull

Edited August 19, 2011 by Angelina

[juice]

Firstly pitbulls were not bred to fight people!

The dog was a xbreed.

I have owned 3 pits, and currently own a Bull breed( one that i am constantly asked if she is a pit).

Whats the answer, no idea, ban the breed? Bad owners move onto another breed.

I am scared for my breed right now.

It seems over the years dogs have been removed from our society, we are so restricted as to where they can go, that non dog owners seem unaware about how they should behave around them.

Perhaps a mandatory course with a good trainer is a must if you wish to own certain dogs?( or all?).

And i loved the music in the pit video ;)

[corrie]

Wow, sheer lunacy! If we believed you, every Police Dog Squad member and security guard dog unit would be suffering numerous injuries caused by their dogs. The fact that they don't is because the breeds selected are those which can be trained to restrain their aggressiveness and to attack only when commanded. The pitbull that killed the little girl that is the subject of this topic could not be stopped no matter what.

The dog that killed this little girl wasn't a pitbull Matthew and you know it.

The overwhelming majority of individuals of breeds used for police and security work fail the grade for a range of reasons. BTW, dog bites are pretty common in dog handlers.

Which part of "because some pitbulls might be dangerous doesn't mean ALL of them are" can't you grasp.

Some Labradors are dangerous Matthew. Seriously scarey dogs. Doesnt mean all of them are and you're in a better position than most to know it.

But take a poorly bred Labrador, fail to socialise it to recognise children as somethign other than prey, fail to teach it bite inhibition, fail to keep it in a manner that sees it form good social bonds with people, fail to train it to come back when its called and fail to exercise it regularly and you've got a recipe for a dangerous dog. The breed matters only as far as size and power go. It matter as far as bite thresholds and bite inhibitions go. It also matter as far as drives go. Crossbreed it with other large and powerful dogs and your capacity to know what its drives and inhibitions are decreases exponentially.

But none of those qualities is restriced to particular breeds, nor shared by all individuals within a breed. Assuming so is the path to disaster and that's the path that BSL takes.

Labradors weren't bred for fighting. Pitbulls were and are.

The pitbull debate will continue I am sure, but seriously Matthew_B don't you have any other ideas. Surely you don't think banning APBT's is just going to stop dog attacks from happening.

I only ever seem to see you post in topics regarding pitbulls.

[Malamum]

I am astonished that so many of you continue to defend such a vicious, dangerous breed of dog. This is a breed that has been bred for one purpose only - to fight. There is no need for a fighting dog in modern society. Yes, other dogs can snap, but the statistics are stark. Even though pitbull breeds are vastly outnumbered in comparison to other dog breeds in our homes (more people have GR's or Lab's than a pitbull breed as family pet), they are by far the most prolific breed involved in deaths and maimings. It's got absolutely nothing at all to do with how the dog is raised or how it is treated. It's the dogs' primitive instinct to fight. Sure, some may be placid and never snap. But in my opinion, it's a risk that is not worth taking. That little girl died a terrifying, truly horrific and painful death right in front of her mother because someone wanted to have a fighting dog as their pet. There can be no excuses for the owner. This tragedy was completely preventable - if the owner of that dog had a non-fighting breed of dog, the chances are very slim to nil that this attack would have occurred. As far as I am concerned, in the eyes of the law a person who owns a fighting dog that kills or maims should be treated in the same category as owning a gun. It's time for tough penalties for owners of these dogs. A strong deterrent is required to stop people from breeding or buying these horrible dogs. The sooner they are extinct, the better off we'll all be.

Where do you get your info Matthew?Obviously the nightly news and the internet.Where do you come to the conclusion that pitbulls are involved in more deaths than any other breed?Like I said before no Purebred American Pitbull Terrier has been involved in a fatality in this country to date so dont worry what happens in the US.

Your ignorance is astounding and the fact that you still think how a dog is raised has nothing to do with it shows you do not understand dogs or the basics of ownership and therefore I dont think you should own a dog at all.You keep saying fighting dog,the dog was a crossbreed it was not an American pitbull Terrier you and the media conveniently keep overlooking that fact.

I agree with the dogs being restricted.I agree with tougher penalties for owners whose dogs attack but I have had that opinion for a long time and have written submissions to the DLG stating such.The problem is they took the easiest and least effective and cheapest way out.Like I have said before a million times they will not eradicate pitbulls from the Australian landscape.We are a decade on from BSL and what has changed?If you cant stop it then control it and remove the breed specific part and make owners responsible.For a start councils should inspect premises where dogs are to be kept and if they will be properly contained if not no licence issued and you have 28 days to provide containment and comply or you forfeit dogs or move from that area.

I'll refer you to a previous post...

Pitbull (all types) attacks: 1,392

Pitbull (all types) deaths: 137

Pitbull (all types) maimings: 734

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11249213/Dog-Attack-Deaths-Maimings-US-Canada-September-1982-to-January-2008

Some of you are getting very hung up on the statistics but are forgetting that the numbers are only using one measure and that is breed.

I would bet that if when analysing the attacks in the above statistics that if as well as breed we also included a few measures about the owner of the dog such as IQ, highest level of education and income we’d see some pretty interesting correlations.

[RottnBullies]

Why

Everything those dogs did was sport, they are not a lap dog, they are a working dog, they were doing no harm to anyone except for enjoying some of their activities. Well respected supporters and advocates of the APBT partake In most of those sports

I see no harm In that, just because It's something you wouldn't do with most other breeds doesn't make It wrong and shouldn't be seen as damaging their reputation, It's what makes them what they are a very agile athletic dog

Pitbulls haven't "worked" legally for many years. They no longer perform their original function and much as I would never sanction nor condone dog fighting, frankly I think its part of the problem because the human aggression that would have been ruthlessly culled in the breed is now encouraged by a small proportion of fanciers (and that's the start of the problem)

Then we have the type of folk attracted to the breed for the wrong reasons. The tough macho types who give their dogs tough names and drape them in studs and leather and apppear to enjoy them intimidating others.

Its one thing to admire the breed for its courage and tenancity and another entirely to encourage manifestations of anti-social behaviour in the dogs.

Sadly, BSL has shut down opportunities for these dogs to attend training in most states but we hardly ever see them at our dog club where they'd have the opportunity to be good ambassadors for the breed.

The "circle the wagons and stuff everyone else" paradigm adopted by the breeds defenders in the anti-BSL fight didn't help either.

But none of this means that the dogs are inherently dangerous.. lets not lose sight of that. Half the time the dog they use as the testing dog in temperament tests on shows like Animal Cops is a pitbull... a happy, tail waggy friendly dog.

But I was talking about the video posted

I wasn't talking about the tough macho types who drape their dogs In studs etc which Is not just reserved for Pitties either! Even though yes I do agree with what you're saying there but I see none of that In the vid, just average people enjoying their dogs

And I still see them and regard them as a working dog regardless of whether they are performing one of their original functions which I might add AMEN to that one! Thankfully they have other functions they excell at where they are not banned such as, therapy dogs, detection, S&R just to name a few

[Matthew_B]

Wow, sheer lunacy! If we believed you, every Police Dog Squad member and security guard dog unit would be suffering numerous injuries caused by their dogs. The fact that they don't is because the breeds selected are those which can be trained to restrain their aggressiveness and to attack only when commanded. The pitbull that killed the little girl that is the subject of this topic could not be stopped no matter what.

The dog that killed this little girl wasn't a pitbull Matthew and you know it.

The overwhelming majority of individuals of breeds used for police and security work fail the grade for a range of reasons. BTW, dog bites are pretty common in dog handlers.

Which part of "because some pitbulls might be dangerous doesn't mean ALL of them are" can't you grasp.

Some Labradors are dangerous Matthew. Seriously scarey dogs. Doesnt mean all of them are and you're in a better position than most to know it.

But take a poorly bred Labrador, fail to socialise it to recognise children as somethign other than prey, fail to teach it bite inhibition, fail to keep it in a manner that sees it form good social bonds with people, fail to train it to come back when its called and fail to exercise it regularly and you've got a recipe for a dangerous dog. The breed matters only as far as size and power go. It matter as far as bite thresholds and bite inhibitions go. It also matter as far as drives go. Crossbreed it with other large and powerful dogs and your capacity to know what its drives and inhibitions are decreases exponentially.

But none of those qualities is restriced to particular breeds, nor shared by all individuals within a breed. Assuming so is the path to disaster and that's the path that BSL takes.

Labradors weren't bred for fighting. Pitbulls were and are.

The pitbull debate will continue I am sure, but seriously Matthew_B don't you have any other ideas. Surely you don't think banning APBT's is just going to stop dog attacks from happening.

I only ever seem to see you post in topics regarding pitbulls.

Isn't it ironic that almost every death from a dog attack in the last decade or so has involved a dog that is a member of the pitbull breed, whether purebred or a cross? Yes, I do think that banning all breeds of pitbulls will prevent a considerable number of deaths and maimings because I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a news report of a person dying from an attack of a Beagle or a Dalmatian or a Labrador. Some of you members here are so blinkered with your love of this breed of dog that nothing anyone says or does will change your mind and that is a shame for both past and future victims of these hideous dogs.

[RottnBullies]

PitBulls have a very bad reputation in society. Just imagine trying to sell your house and telling the prospective buyers that your next door neighbour has one or two Pitbulls. They are one of the most feared type of dog in modern society. Now a pitbull type has slaughtered a small child, someone's baby. What good is a having a dog that has to be confined for fear of it attacking an animal or human ? My opinion is this type of dog has no place in society. Do the dogs suffer because they have bad owners that don't know what to do ? Yes. Do we need these dogs ? No.

Certain humans have no place In society either, shall we exterminate them too!

Hehe.......if only we could !!! :D

I have to admit R&B , when it comes to my own dogs ,pitties do worry me. We have a fair few PBs ,staffies and crosses thereof around our area...,many of which are loose at the front of their properties.......so these days because of it I rarely take the pleasure to walk my dogs . Instead I drive them to local parks to exercise them. I also believe that once pitties are off the scene.....the next bull breed to take their place in trouble will be the American Bulldog. I am seeing more and more of this breed and none seem to have a very nice disposition.

I would be worried too walking my dogs with any loose breeds out In front of their properties, but that's not a breed specific problem, more a irresponsible owner problem

[Fatsofatsoman]

before even discussing bans I'd like to ask;

Are some breeds - when brought up and trained in the same enviroment as others more inclined to be people aggressive?

If the answer is yes then the actual OWNERSHIP of these breeds needs to be legislated. Don't ban the dog but perhaps only allow certain people to own them. For e.g. a training course of some nature needs to be undertaken to get a licence to own one of these dogs. Maybe this really can only be enforced at Breeder level - Breeder's cant sell to someone who hasn't undertaken this course.

Of course people will still breed illegally and find ways around - but if the media spent as much money and time promoting this sort of plan as they do denouncing the breed - and making it hard for the illegal breeders to get away with it then surely that will reduce bad owners owning badly bred dogs.

[poodlefan]

Isn't it ironic that almost every death from a dog attack in the last decade or so has involved a dog that is a member of the pitbull breed, whether purebred or a cross? Yes, I do think that banning all breeds of pitbulls will prevent a considerable number of deaths and maimings because I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a news report of a person dying from an attack of a Beagle or a Dalmatian or a Labrador. Some of you members here are so blinkered with your love of this breed of dog that nothing anyone says or does will change your mind and that is a shame for both past and future victims of these hideous dogs.

How about maiming instead then?

Get your blinkers off and read this

and this

and this

and this

Edited August 19, 2011 by poodlefan