Child Killed By Dog

[Brennan's Mum]

With all due respect, whilst the injury risk can be greater with a bigger dog, the little Maltese dogs or 'SWF' are still capable of causing injury. What happens if a 'small breed' bites an elderly person with fragile skin? or rushes at an elderly person causing them to trip? a friends grandmother ended up in hospital from a fall caused by a neighbours loose Maltese...the dog took this lady by surprise and she lost her footing.

I'm sorry I don't see how you can make this comparison

I agree that small breeds will also bite and because of size the media disregard this. But an elderley lady losing her footing has nothing to do with a child being attacked by a dog

It's not a comparison. I just thought that it was worth putting it out there considering the OP who I quoted mentioned that a Maltese is not going to 'go crazy and kill her/ sever an arm''- I was simply pointing out that there are those in our community who can be at risk from injury from injury from a smaller dog that a younger person may not be. The issue is irresponsible owners and when other people are hurt

Not comparing a hospitalisation of an elderly person over the death of a child. Both are just examples of the risk that can be associated with dogs whose owners don't have them under adequate control.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Brennan's Mum

[Littlebullydog]

This is a very sad outcome for the family of the little girl.....but one thing I do question, is how was this dog to actually just wander INTO their house to actually do this in the first place -its winter, werent the doors closed. Its saying this happened IN their house.

Also how did the dog get OUT of its property?

There is many questions as to how, and why this sort of thing has happened.

Then there is the news articles, and public opinion that state it was a Pitbull....was it actually a Pitbull cross, or some other Bullbreed cross?, seems alot of dogs get tagged as Pitbulls when they are not...I have had this several times, with my Dogue De Bordeauxs, Ive been asked "Is that a Pitbull, or a Red Nosed Pitbull?" because they are a Bullbreed and they have red noses....NO MY DOGS ARENT PITBULLS! My dogs are even DNAed so that should there ever an incident (hopefully not) that the right breed is classified.

Society needs to educate the public..why not make it people should get a license to own a dog, take it from them should they ever not conform to the rules and regulations in Responsible Dog Ownership!

In the 1990's I too owned Pitbulls, I was a member of The Pitbull Club of Victoria, we had regulated shows, our Patron of the club was a doctor -not some muscle bound, tattooed thug..yet we were all classed as not so likeable Pitbull owners -even back then 20+ years ago they were on the band wagon to try and ban Pitbulls. Our shows were held monthly with no incidents, 50+ Pitbulls all at the same location at the one time. Rules were made that there was 'no facing' of dogs ..meaning do not allow your dog to make eye contact with another dog, which everyone followed -if your dog made eye contact, you simply walked the other way. This correct training method made it possible for our shows to happen without incident. Each and every dog that were at these shows had judges examine then for both confirmation and weight pull....once again this meant contact with complete strangers, and once again without a single incident ever happening.

Our motto was 'Punish the deed, not the breed!'....which I still firmly believe today.

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC but...Today in our local news a boy was killed by a cow whilst milking, their has been other incidents were cows and bulls have killed many farmers......yet we dont see 'Ban the Cow/Bull'...oh thats right, we still use them for meat purposes, and also for the milk that you have with your cuppa each day.

Cars kill people, but we still choose to drive on a daily basis.

Speed kills people, yet I bet almost 95% that have replied to this have at some time hit high speeds whilst travelling.

Guns kill people, we make people have licenses to own them, and let the so called experts use them....yet Police have also killed people with guns.

Smoking kills people, yet we can still buy them at our local supermarket, petrol station, corner shop.

Sharks kill people, yet we still choose to swim in the sea.

Hey even snakes can kill people, yet we still choose to house them and keep them as pets.

Society is not safe, everything we do can kill us

So my question is by banning the Pitbull...how on earth is this going to make the world a better place? People die, thats life -unfortunately some come to grief in very sad circumstances...but by banning one breed, it wont stop there! First it will be the Pitbull, then cause its a Terrier they'll say after another attack it was another terrier or Bullbreed involved, so then it will be your Staffordshire BULL TERRIER, BULL TERRIER, BULL Mastiff..basically any dog with the word BULL or TERRIER attached to it name. Then should anymore attacks occur after banning all the Bull and Terrier breeds, it will come down to size of dog....at the end of the day all we will be able to own is the designer pocket rocket dogs

Heres a link thats been around for awhile, how many of the general public can actually identify the real PITBULL http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

There is no way around this whole ban this, dont do this, that'll kill ya world that we live in, the only thing we can do to TRY and make the world a better place is EDUCATION. When and where possible try an educate people that simply cant tell wrong from right, good from bad etc etc

Sorry for the long rant, but Ive heard this plea to ban Pitbulls for 20+ years, and Im sick of hearing it

_________________

[bulldogz4eva]

I do see the other side of the coin and thank you Bulldogforeva for your response, because it was balanced ...

and I realise that stats in the US, don't equate to here

but the news was showing terrible attacks from Australia in the last couple of years, and they are hard to defend.

I don't really know much about pit bulls, as in, not having come in contact with a lot, all I really know them is from Dog Whisperer, and I love them

I also do not want to see entire breed of any dogs banned, but I am just saying, people can't just discount the statistics...

anyhow, I don't know the answer, I guess it all comes to education, and strong ownership ... but I don't see that happening for a long time

I cant comment on the coverage you saw as it may not have been the ssame as I saw.However over the years I have seen the same footage of dogs being baited and jumping at fences with their mouths open to get a reaction.The effect of that is fear in the community about pitbulls.When attacks are reported as pitbulls and then found out not to be do you think they retract it?Of course they dont and then this becomes peoples reality that they are to be feared.When you cross any breed of dog you alter the original temperament and you cannot guarantee the outcome.It is no longer the original product so to speak so how can you call it the same.The dog in question if it was a pitbull mastiff cross it doesnt represent either breed.When you take a very much prey driven dog and cross it with a dog that may be rather defensive you cant guarantee a stable temperament in all cases but all people will see and hear is pitbull as thats all that matters.

When I say stats from the US dont matter it is not a throw away statement.I have been to the States several times and you need to understand the lay of the land.I think Texas has the highest recorded number of pitbull fatalatiesTtexas also has the death penalty and has a history written in blood.When you have desperate people who may enter you home to rob or murder you people will do what is necessary to prevent that.People sleep with loaded guns and when you have fences that are only knee high that people can walk over they will make sure they cant make it to the door.If that means chaining a dog in the yard that is what they will do and it will be a dog that will bite and stop people dead in their tracks.The down side of that is when a strange child happens to wander in the yard and the dog doesnt discriminate.Every good ol boy has a pitbull type dog and most arent real pitbulls which is my original point and why those statistics are worthless.This country hasnt descended into that chaos yet.

[Aidan3]

I also do not want to see entire breed of any dogs banned, but I am just saying, people can't just discount the statistics...

I don't discount the statistics. I don't fully buy the "but how do we know it's really a pitbull" line either.

But what you need to keep in mind with statistics is that correlation does not imply causation. If there is still a problem when you take away the pitbulls, then you have to start thinking that the breed of dog is not the cause of the problem. I hesitate to draw too many analogies, because an analogy is easily twisted into a straw-man argument, but you can compare this to the suicide rate after gun control. Controlling guns does not reduce suicide rates, unfortunately. There is another variable.

Quickasyoucan asked earlier about the stats comparing states with BSL and states without BSL in Australia. Unfortunately that wouldn't be a valid comparison for the same reason; in that case "BSL" is counfounded with "location". It's valid data, but we can't draw any conclusions from it.

[sumosmum]

But how do you even implement a ban on all Pitbull Crosses? Who decides which dog is a Pitbull cross and which is a Staffy or Amstaff cross? Or a Cane Corso cross?

You can't it is beyond impossible. Ridiculous.

Simple. Round up anything with a big head, smooth coat and weighing over 18kg that isn't ANKC registered and kill the lot. Anything red or brindle will be first in line.

And don't think it can't happen.

This is already in force in Victoria. It was amended last September to add crosses of Restricted Breeds. The article that stated they would bring in a ban on crosses, (way back in the thread, sorry I am late catching up on the thread) also incorrectly stated the amount of fines if your dog killed or seriously injured a person. This was all changed last year and I think the pollie that mentioned it hasn't caught up on things.

As far as I know, they haven't hit anyone with having a restricted breed cross as yet, and the reason is, they mention in the Act that they will be judged by a standard. The standard they are speaking of has not been written as yet.

[RottnBullies]

A standard for a cross breed, I'm still waiting to see what bollocks they'll be coming up for that one!

[sumosmum]

A standard for a cross breed, I'm still waiting to see what bollocks they'll be coming up for that one!

Yep, think they are struggling with the standard. That law was passed, but the standard has never materialized. They were probably in no rush because of the amnesty, but now with the talk of stopping the amnesty, it may all of a sudden come to light. Who knows.

[ncarter]

Here, let me help.

OMG - a Beagle was responsible for a fatal attack.. and retriever mixes.. ban them!!!!

I must admit im surprised by these stats, like over 26 years APBT's were responsible for 1312 attacks doing bodily harm, GSD's in the same period 71 attacks.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/dlg_generalindex.asp?sectionid=1&areaindex=DAIDATA&documenttype=8&mi=9&ml=10

That's the NSW one.

As far as I know - NSW is the only state with mandatory reporting on dog attacks.

The breed ids could be guess work and the stats would be skewed by unregistered dogs ie it's possible that unregistered dogs are included in the bites as a percentage of registered dogs of that breed (or dogs that look like that breed or are claimed to be that breed).

In the latest report (March 2011)

The biggest biter is the NFI breed followed by SBT or SBTx on the latest NSW report - but the SBT are also one of the most popular registered breed of dog.

On the big report at the bottom of the page the SBT is further down the list as %of breed registered are biters - except a very significant percentage of biters are not registered or never identified.

But the Labrador - is much further down the list than SBT - given there are a comparable number of them registered. Ie very popular breed of dog.

The other popular breeds that are biters - are all the farm dogs. Hmm. I got me one of those. It's going to kill me in my sleep - arrrghhhh....

[OSoSwift]

Banning the breed won't work, morons will go to a different breed and trash that one, then what? ban that, then the next and the next???

We somehow need to figure out some way of licensing people. Not sure how you would do it, but unfortunately many people that are attracted to the tougher looking breeds have NFI and/or want the tough dog or the guard dog and then of course there is an issue.

There is no simple answer but we need to figure out some way of stopping or reducing the number of morons that can own a dog, or if they have had a dog that has caused issues they can't have another of similar breeding or something.

I do imagine in our totally politically correct society of today telling people what breed of dog they can or cannot own would be in breach of civil liberties or something equally as stupid.

I have owned quite a few dogs many regard as dangerous or potentially dangerous. Should I not be allowed to own them because other idiots have no idea even when mine have never caused an issue???

Edited August 18, 2011 by OSoSwift

[rubiton]

Its a shame that there seems no way to educate people about dogs - there was alater report that explained why the dog went into the house. The family members were either leaving or were outside and they ran to get away from teh dog. Now dog owners we shoudl know the worst thing to do is runfrom any dog you dont want to follow you but so many inthe community these days are scared of dogs any dogs and will just run not knowing that it can trigger the chase (let alone increase aggression). I've heard of how to act around strange dogs taught in schools but its something that may need to be taught to the wider area of the general public.

[Tapferhund]

"just seems people here, jump automatically to the dogs and the breeds defense, without acknowledging, their may be a problem"

Perhaps we jump to the dogs and or breeds defense because we know this attack, like others, will effect each and every one of us and our dogs....in further legislation AGAINST dogs in general, various breeds and dog ownership. The consequences of this dreadful attack could be huge.....bigger than we realize in this ever growing anti dog society of ours. It worries me when I hear Govts are going to step in to see to the banning of dangerous BREEDS and not just one breed ....that being Pit Bull Terriers. With a fair few breeds on an already Govt list.....it could mean the end to all bull breeds including Staffies, Rotties, Dobes, GSD's, Cattle Dogs, Akita's just to name a few.

I know what happened to those people was terrible and beyond belief and the owner of the dog needs jailing for life for what he has done to them and to his dog......but we all need to still take a stand for all dogs regardless of breed......becaus if we don't we will lose many breeds and the privilege of having them .

[sandgrubber]

I can see the rationale for regulating powerful dogs of breeds / mixes with bad histories. But by the same rationale, shouldn't we add a few more restrictions on large SUV's . . . I'm sure they are responsible for more traffic fatalities than economy cars?

When the cost of restricting the likely-to-be guilty put horrible costs on the almost-certain-to-be innocent, something's terribly wrong. Especially when current dangerous dog legislation is poorly enforced and easily evaded.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My brother and I have tried to teach his children how bad it is to run away from a dog squealing or screaming - but unfortunately - that's what kids do - either in play or fear. Run around squealing and flapping their arms.

And it's hard to get these kids to believe you when they're looking at two different dogs that really don't care if they run round squealing. Sigh.

So it comes back to the dog owner to do the right thing. Again.

Banning the breed won't work. They can't even identify pitbulls reliably now. And there are plenty of other breeds way higher on the bite list.

It used to be that people were terrified of GSD and Rotties. But I don't hear anyone calling to ban these. And I see plenty of people cross the road to get away from the savage ACDx - and nobody is asking to ban them either.

I swear some of these big scary attack cross breed dogs are just to compensate for some men's lack of manhood.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[cybergenesis]

A few points:

* There is a serious knee jerk political reaction festering over this. Worry about various breeds of dogs being totally banned and destroyed.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/call-for-urgent-review-of-dog-laws-after-fatal-attack-in-st-albans/story-e6frf7jo-1226117179182

* I personally don't believe "pit bulls" are much more dangerous than many other breeds, but they tend to attract "bogan" type criminal owners. I can't tell you how many meth heads, and animal beaters I have unfortunately met in my life that own "pit bull" type dogs.

* A mauling to death is still a rare, freak accident. Car accidents kill far more people and do many other things, but we don't ban these activities. I strongly believe in a persons right to own any breed of dog they want, unless a court order has been made due to prior convictions. I also believe, that if a persons dog attacks and kills someone they should be charged with manslaughter- depending on the individual circumstances of the case. These are rare incidents, I am sorry but I don't feel a ban on any breed is justified.

* I believe my full grown male Labrador is capable of mauling and killing a child in the wrong circumstances. It is extremely possessive of its food and extremely aggressive at guarding it. WHile it is fine in all other ways, I wouldn't want a toddler to walk over and try and remove its food from its dish- I believe it would attack the toddler and do SERIOUS damage. As the owner I wouldn't even try and remove its food once it is eating. However, I am a responsible dog owner, my property is very secure (3 meter high fence surrounding the yard), and my dog has never escaped the property before, and to be frank, it never will.

Banning any breed of dog in my opinion is knee jerk nanny state stuff. The responsibility for these rare events lies on the heads of the usually irresponsible dog owners. Should we ban kitchen knives because some people may stab others with them? We should do that before we ban dogs, dogs are age old human companions, and I am sorry to people who are offended, but occasionally dog attacks happen. Banning dogs is not appropriate.

[Muttaburra]

My brother and I have tried to teach his children how bad it is to run away from a dog squealing or screaming - but unfortunately - that's what kids do - either in play or fear. Run around squealing and flapping their arms.

And it's hard to get these kids to believe you when they're looking at two different dogs that really don't care if they run round squealing. Sigh.

So it comes back to the dog owner to do the right thing. Again.

Banning the breed won't work. They can't even identify pitbulls reliably now. And there are plenty of other breeds way higher on the bite list.

It used to be that people were terrified of GSD and Rotties. But I don't hear anyone calling to ban these. And I see plenty of people cross the road to get away from the savage ACDx - and nobody is asking to ban them either.

I swear some of these big scary attack cross breed dogs are just to compensate for some men's lack of manhood.

Of course a 4 or 5 year old child (beyond (below) the age of reason) is going to respond with primal fear to a threat, pretty scary for anyone.

All of this raises so many issues for me.

Apparently, according to the mother of the tragically deceased child, she called for help from the dog's owners, to no avail, they did not physically intervene. IMO, you have these dogs, you have to be prepared to jump in at anytime.

According to relatives of the Sudanese refugee family, the neighbours who owned the dog rushed over, but stood back from the attack and made no attempt to grab the dog. "They didn't try to help her," said Daniel Atem, a cousin of Ayen's father. "They just called the dog. They didn't go to hold it."

New story link

Ayen's death came quickly. Her five-year-old cousin, Nyadeng, received head injuries and Nyadeng's mother was bitten on her hands and arm as she tried to save her girls. Mother and daughter both required surgery in a local hospital yesterday.

My question here is about the greatly revered quality "gameness" of certain breeds. Please get a grip, humans bred these dogs, oh yes for "gameness", but please ask yourself how far removed from nature is a concentrated "gameness", and isn't it just a human created quality that neither a wild canine or a domesticated dog would not normally possess, but for human meddling and interference in the breeding of dogs.

Sorry folks, I am totally over it.

Victoria is the home state of hunters, it's just a weekend sport for many amateurs, with their half-baked bred hunting dogs, (and many dogs deemed to be failures dumped in pounds and local shelters, many of which end up on death row,) oh how noble and courageous these animal abusers are.! the hunters.

Every animal wild or domestic has a natural instinct for it's own self preservation, humans have intervened with the breeding of dogs to create certain dogs that lacks these instincts, this is a product of human ego, and yes as in the above quoted post, perhaps due to some kind of perception of a lack of self esteem.

Something that I am tired of is the advocates of certain breeds who rail against the laws, but do nothing at all to tackle the low-life scum that give their favoured dog breed and exceeding bad name. Come on brave breed advocates, show your true mettle and take it to the streets.

Professional (licensed) hunters are few and far between, so please don't use that as an argument, according these kind of hunters they are meticulously responsible.

[megan_]

Its a shame that there seems no way to educate people about dogs - there was alater report that explained why the dog went into the house. The family members were either leaving or were outside and they ran to get away from teh dog. Now dog owners we shoudl know the worst thing to do is runfrom any dog you dont want to follow you but so many inthe community these days are scared of dogs any dogs and will just run not knowing that it can trigger the chase (let alone increase aggression).

Most dogs don't kill because someone runs. I'd run too if a dog was attacking me.

[raz]

The 7 PM Project just had a decent spiel in regards to the attack. It was not their first headline (Melbourne shooting with 2 deaths was). Had the CEO from Lort Smith on who denounced BSL - it's the owners, was for tougher penalties for the irresponsible owner . David Hughes and Charlie Pickering were practically male versions of PoodleFan My only beef was their little map of Pit Bull type attacks in the last decade could have been left on the cutting room floor.

It was a really good segment and the CEO from Lort Smith was excellent, wasnt she. Charlie continually bringing it back to the issue of ownership was fantastic. Good job, charlie! With regard to the mapping (sure they could have mapped ALL serious attacks because the way they had it just keeps feeding the current frenzy) it was more to do with showing the max penalties on the owners, I thought. Vic currently only has a $4,500 fine whereas the other states hold prison terms? Kicking myself I didnt record it.

[Rayvale]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Can't find enough thumbs up - you have spelled out exactly how I feel about this!

"just seems people here, jump automatically to the dogs and the breeds defense, without acknowledging, their may be a problem"

Perhaps we jump to the dogs and or breeds defense because we know this attack, like others, will effect each and every one of us and our dogs....in further legislation AGAINST dogs in general, various breeds and dog ownership. The consequences of this dreadful attack could be huge.....bigger than we realize in this ever growing anti dog society of ours. It worries me when I hear Govts are going to step in to see to the banning of dangerous BREEDS and not just one breed ....that being Pit Bull Terriers. With a fair few breeds on an already Govt list.....it could mean the end to all bull breeds including Staffies, Rotties, Dobes, GSD's, Cattle Dogs, Akita's just to name a few.

I know what happened to those people was terrible and beyond belief and the owner of the dog needs jailing for life for what he has done to them and to his dog......but we all need to still take a stand for all dogs regardless of breed...... because if we don't we will lose many breeds and the privilege of having them .

[DaisyDog]

I am going to put my head on the chopping block

but I don't think, the blatant, defense of pitbulls, helps at all... or saying, all dogs can bite, etc, etc. why don't they put a fluffy dog up, blah, blah, blah... because even if a crazy maltese terrier got loose, and ran into my house, it is not going to kill me, or sever an arm... how do you counter these... I am just trying to play devils advocate.

A lot have discounted statistics, but clearly, there is something in those ... even even if they are only half true.

just seems people here, jump automatically to the dogs and the breeds defense, without acknowledging, their may be a problem

I don't think that helps

you shout down people who put statistics up, but then pull out the statistics that support your claim

I don't know what the answer, but sheer bloody mindness on either side of the argment is going to help

With all due respect, whilst the injury risk can be greater with a bigger dog, the little Maltese dogs or 'SWF' are still capable of causing injury. What happens if a 'small breed' bites an elderly person with fragile skin? or rushes at an elderly person causing them to trip? a friends grandmother ended up in hospital from a fall caused by a neighbours loose Maltese...the dog took this lady by surprise and she lost her footing.

Exactly. My grandmother had all the skin on her leg ripped of by the claws of her Chi X.