"alpha Dog" Opinions Please

[Guest HarperGD]

Hi all,

I need some opinions from some more experienced dog owners than myself. Please excuse me if this is a bit long but I would really love some opinions/advice!!

We had a trainer come round to see Harper (who was 17 weeks old at time of the trainer's visit) shortly after my partner had left to go on his deployment overseas because after OH left he became very unsettled when I left him alone.

By unsettled I mean he would cry at the front door quite loudly as soon as I walked out of it and then (I filmed him) would wander around howling the whole time I was gone.

(Now, we had had this issue when Harper was a new puppy but he had improved. Normally, he would whinge a bit and then go upstairs and be relatively quiet the whole time we were out.)

I got the trainer because I wanted to see if I was doing things correctly as seeing Harper getting distressed over seeing me leave was upsetting me.

Anyway, I thought that the reason Harper was acting this was was due to:

1) him sensing my stress at my partner going overseas,

2) him being stressed himself at my partner leaving as when we left for the airport there were lots of bag and everyone was very emotional as soon as the door clicked shut Harper was crying his head off ( )

3) he is still a puppy and this is a big change for him and he still, at the end of the day, prefers to be with his pack, as all dogs do.

HOWEVER. The trainer had other ideas.

She believed that this was purely due to Harper thinking he was the alpha dog, and so whenever I left he was essentially calling to me. She thinks my partner was alpha dog, and that's why this started when he left.

What led her to believe that he thought he was alpha was because of a few things he/I would do such as, him sitting at my feet (this is apparently him invading my personal space and thus, asserting his dominance), me picking him up and hugging him (physically elevating him to my level, thus, again, making him dominant), him eating at the same time as us, him pulling on the leash (I'll admit we hadn't done any leash training at this point because we had only really just started walking him after his shots), him going up the stairs before me and a couple of other things.

Her solution to him not crying when I left was to assert my dominance and let him know I am pack leader. A few methods she showed me for this was to push him away when he tries to sit at my feet while telling him NO (and if he repeats behaviour to "sin bin" him), not to pick him up and cuddle him unless I'm holding him belly up, not to let him sit and cuddle with me unless I invite him and really to only go play with him/cuddle him/give him attention when he is off doing his own thing.

Now, to be honest I had thought that all the research into the whole "dogs constantly fighting for dominance" was kind of old and had since been disproved??? (Correct me here if I'm wrong??) And that domestic dogs can't really be compared to wolves in captivity anyway?

Also, her assertion that my partner was the alpha dog didn't really make sense to me, as he does all the same things I do (Harper sits at his feet and gets lots of cuddles from him too??)

So much of it just doesn't sit right with me and I really, really wanted to get other people's opinions.

I would have honestly thought it would be more useful to Harper to just get used to being on his own while we're home and then to gradually increase the time he's alone again, because I'm assuming it's no coincidence this has just happened with my partner leaving and he is probably just a little shaken up.

And also - he IS still a puppy. Isn't so much of this (crying when alone, wanting to be close to the "pack") normal puppy behaviour? And I thought it was normal DOG behaviour to sit at their owner's feet, and not a play at being dominant? (again, correct me if I'm wrong, please!)

Anyway, as I said, I am a new dog owner and I don't know all that much about dog behaviour, training etc. so if you guys tell me the trainer is right, then obviously I will take her advice.

I just think that sometimes second opinions are a good idea and I know a lot of you have a LOT of experience with dogs so advice would be appreciated

[huski]

Personally I'd be getting the opinion of another trainer.

The alpha dog stuff she told you sounds like utter crap IMO.

I believe dominance exists in dogs but IMO a truly dominant dog is rare.

ETA: at the end of the day you shouldn't have been left feeling that uncomfortable with what the trainer told you. A good trainer will make sure you are comfortable with their methods and understand what they've told you. There's no use in trying to put methods into practice you aren't comfortable with - even if they are right they won't work without 100% commitment from you.

Edited August 14, 2011 by huski

[Vickie]

My advice...RUN A MILE from that trainer!

Where do you live? Maybe we can recommend a trainer who actually knows something about dogs

[minxy]

I'm no trainer, but that sounds like really crap advice to me. I'd try seeing someone else and see what they suggest. As was already said, you should feel comfortable with the advice given to you and not left confused.

[Weasels]

:rolleyes:

I definitely have an opinion on this, but to minimise ranting I'll just say this is a good website and has some extra references at the end - http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

I agree with huski, dominance is a way overused concept and smacks of lazy training in this case IMO. Not fair on the good trainers that actually think about an individual dogs problems and how to tailor a solution, instead of just saying every dog is dominant and giving the same solutions.

Get a second opinion.

[GoldenGirl85]

not to pick him up and cuddle him unless I'm holding him belly up

Really?...definitely time for a second opinion

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

[WreckitWhippet]

Harper is a young pup and a dog bred to be a companion. Quite frankly this "alpha" stuff is bullcrap.

He's a young pup that needs to establish a routine and feel secure within his environment. He cries and howls because he's insecure or lonely.

[Guest HarperGD]

Thank you so much guys for taking time to read my loooong post.

At the time of the trainer's visit I listened to everything she had to say and thought maybe she was right and I had just been slowly "breaking" my puppy by letting him sit at my feet and come for me for pats and affection.

It wasn't until after she'd left and I reflected on everything and did some reading of my own that I thought "waaaaaait a minute... this takes the fun out of everything I love about my doggy!"

So yes, I'm not comfortable with the advice and I will see another trainer.

Also, when Harper wants pats/love/hugs, he asks for them by coming and sitting in front of us and looking at us. Not by jumping up or barking or being a pest. I thought that this polite behaviour SHOULD be rewarded with pats etc. but she said no, it was still "attention seeking" behaviour and so should be ignored

That makes me sad because... well, he's being so polite about it!!

Unfortunately, we have just moved from Sydney up to Byron Bay to live with my parents on their property until my partner is back in January, so I will have to try and find a second opinion from someone up here (unless I wait until we're back down in Sydney in September to desex him and see someone then?)

I was recommended Steve at K9 Pro, but it was a 2 month wait to see him and I couldn't wait that long, hence why I found someone else in Sydney...

Thanks for the links, I'll definitely have a read of those.

So...... does this mean I can let my doggy lie at my feet again? And pick him up and rub my face in his fur?? And let him sleep on my chest while I'm on the couch watching TV??? :D

(Edit for detail.)

Edited August 15, 2011 by HarperGD

[Gayle.]

May I suggest that you relax and enjoy your puppy while he is still a puppy, and stop trying to over-analyse every single whimper and cry?

[Guest HarperGD]

Harper is a young pup and a dog bred to be a companion. Quite frankly this "alpha" stuff is bullcrap.

He's a young pup that needs to establish a routine and feel secure within his environment. He cries and howls because he's insecure or lonely.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you

And things were very unsettled in the whole house after OH left. I was miserable and stressed. I had a feeling Harper was reacting to this, but the trainer believed otherwise... sigh. (Should have listened to my instincts!!)

And GayleK, I have been enjoying him but this trainer really threw me and I only want to do what's best for my dog in the long run. I thought I had been doing the wrong thing and his recent whimpering and crying was MUCH WORSE than what it had ever been previously. I also needed support because my partner had gone away, hence the trainer in the first place.

It has all been resolved now as we are up at my parent's place and we are in a routine and he's a happy puppy again, but the trainer's "rules" were still hanging in my head and upsetting me.

Now, I feel much better

Thanks guys, it's good to have reassurance sometimes!! :D

Edited August 15, 2011 by HarperGD

[GoldenGirl85]

Have you crate trained Harper? that might make him a bit more comfortable being alone...for short periods I mean, then you can gradually lengthen the time and his access to the house etc

[kiesha09]

Just a thought - when you leave him do you leave any enrichment toys like a kong stuffed with food or a treat ball or a bone?

When ever I leave my puppy's I ensure that it is a good thing. So when I leave I make sure they get their special 'home alone' toys which in our house are a kong stuffed with their breakfast (they don't get food in a bowl) and a treat ball filled with kibble.

I will also sometimes throw some kibble all over the lawn so they have to find it.

All of this takes their mind off me leaving and also conditions them to believe me leaving is not a bad thing because they get something great in return. Now my dogs practically beg me to leave for work in the morning (but it certainly wasn't always like this!!!)

[Guest HarperGD]

Just a thought - when you leave him do you leave any enrichment toys like a kong stuffed with food or a treat ball or a bone?

When ever I leave my puppy's I ensure that it is a good thing. So when I leave I make sure they get their special 'home alone' toys which in our house are a kong stuffed with their breakfast (they don't get food in a bowl) and a treat ball filled with kibble.

I will also sometimes throw some kibble all over the lawn so they have to find it.

All of this takes their mind off me leaving and also conditions them to believe me leaving is not a bad thing because they get something great in return. Now my dogs practically beg me to leave for work in the morning (but it certainly wasn't always like this!!!)

Yes I was doing all this, but as soon as I left it was all ignored and forgotten until I came home again (as I discovered having filmed him while I was away.)

I would also hide treats, but this was a very minor distraction for him and as soon as he'd eaten one it was back to crying and howling.

As I said, this wasn't his behaviour before OH went away, hence why I believed it was due to him being unsettled and stressed by all the sudden changes in the house (my energy included!)

Anyway as I said, he's much better now that we're back in a routine and up at my parents house.

Golden girl - he is crate trained but only at night time. During the day he only goes in if he wants to...

[Purdie]

My inlaws had many dogs over the years and they never trained any of them.They said they didn't believe you had to train a dog and that they would learn themselves what was expected of them,oddly enough they never had any behavior problems with their dogs.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Purdie

[OSoSwift]

I wouldn't worry to much about that trainer, if you would liket o talk to anotehr trainer find someone else.

PUrdie - my dad always said the same, however he did actually train them alot, just not in the formal sense. They were not allowed to jump up, push through doors, they had to be calm in the house, come when called, not nick off (on a farm), not steal of beg food. So while they were not formally trained they were trained all the time and were fantastic dogs that were well mannered.

[Ali]

Hi all,

I need some opinions from some more experienced dog owners than myself. Please excuse me if this is a bit long but I would really love some opinions/advice!!

We had a trainer come round to see Harper (who was 17 weeks old at time of the trainer's visit) shortly after my partner had left to go on his deployment overseas because after OH left he became very unsettled when I left him alone.

By unsettled I mean he would cry at the front door quite loudly as soon as I walked out of it and then (I filmed him) would wander around howling the whole time I was gone.

(Now, we had had this issue when Harper was a new puppy but he had improved. Normally, he would whinge a bit and then go upstairs and be relatively quiet the whole time we were out.)

I got the trainer because I wanted to see if I was doing things correctly as seeing Harper getting distressed over seeing me leave was upsetting me.

Anyway, I thought that the reason Harper was acting this was was due to:

1) him sensing my stress at my partner going overseas,

2) him being stressed himself at my partner leaving as when we left for the airport there were lots of bag and everyone was very emotional as soon as the door clicked shut Harper was crying his head off ( )

3) he is still a puppy and this is a big change for him and he still, at the end of the day, prefers to be with his pack, as all dogs do.

HOWEVER. The trainer had other ideas.

She believed that this was purely due to Harper thinking he was the alpha dog, and so whenever I left he was essentially calling to me. She thinks my partner was alpha dog, and that's why this started when he left.

What led her to believe that he thought he was alpha was because of a few things he/I would do such as, him sitting at my feet (this is apparently him invading my personal space and thus, asserting his dominance), me picking him up and hugging him (physically elevating him to my level, thus, again, making him dominant), him eating at the same time as us, him pulling on the leash (I'll admit we hadn't done any leash training at this point because we had only really just started walking him after his shots), him going up the stairs before me and a couple of other things.

Her solution to him not crying when I left was to assert my dominance and let him know I am pack leader. A few methods she showed me for this was to push him away when he tries to sit at my feet while telling him NO (and if he repeats behaviour to "sin bin" him), not to pick him up and cuddle him unless I'm holding him belly up, not to let him sit and cuddle with me unless I invite him and really to only go play with him/cuddle him/give him attention when he is off doing his own thing.

Now, to be honest I had thought that all the research into the whole "dogs constantly fighting for dominance" was kind of old and had since been disproved??? (Correct me here if I'm wrong??) And that domestic dogs can't really be compared to wolves in captivity anyway?

Also, her assertion that my partner was the alpha dog didn't really make sense to me, as he does all the same things I do (Harper sits at his feet and gets lots of cuddles from him too??)

So much of it just doesn't sit right with me and I really, really wanted to get other people's opinions.

I would have honestly thought it would be more useful to Harper to just get used to being on his own while we're home and then to gradually increase the time he's alone again, because I'm assuming it's no coincidence this has just happened with my partner leaving and he is probably just a little shaken up.

And also - he IS still a puppy. Isn't so much of this (crying when alone, wanting to be close to the "pack") normal puppy behaviour? And I thought it was normal DOG behaviour to sit at their owner's feet, and not a play at being dominant? (again, correct me if I'm wrong, please!)

Anyway, as I said, I am a new dog owner and I don't know all that much about dog behaviour, training etc. so if you guys tell me the trainer is right, then obviously I will take her advice.

I just think that sometimes second opinions are a good idea and I know a lot of you have a LOT of experience with dogs so advice would be appreciated

I agree with what everyone has said regarding getting another opinion.

But there is still food for thought....Alot of trainers suscribe to the opinion of you control every aspect of your dogs life and interations....especially around high value items in the eyes of dogs. Food, play and pack....

The desire is to have the dog believe its part of the pack, but that it is the lowest ranking member in the pack.

This doesnt upset the dog or hurt its feelings its simply ensures complience and submisiveness from your dog. All the actions listed by your trainer can increase the perception in the dogs eyes that it is equal ir higher then everyone else int he pack.

Now is this the situation with your dog, I dont know...but I do believe there are somethings that you need to ensure you do to maintain your "rank" even if you let the dog get away with other things like laying on your feet wihtout permission.

I think as a minumum:

The dog should eat after you or have the perception that he is eating after you:

Follow you in every scenario even if you are moving from one room to another that is you enter the room first and then he follow.

No pulling on the leash...

But at the end of the day, if your dog isnt showing ANY signs of aggressiveness and you are happy with the (lets call it) assertiveness then just look to correct the behaviour you dont like...

Would Crate Training help ?

Edited August 15, 2011 by Ali

[Guest lavendergirl]

I don't know what breed Harper is but if he is a breed that was essentially bred to be a lap dog it is ridiculous to recommend pushing him away when he is just trying to show affection IMO. I agree with what some others have said - just enjoy him and don't worry about "domination" issues. He will soon learn what the basic rules are if you are consistent about where the lines are drawn and if he is waiting to be invited to have cuddles etc then he is doing well.

[corvus]

There was a recent thread about separation anxiety here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/224982-separation-anxiety/ If Harper is not even eating once you are gone, that is worrying to me. It sounds as though he is very distressed. Separation anxiety can be a complicated problem and it can be difficult to identify the root cause of all the symptoms. There are generic strategies for dealing with it, but IMO it's better to get a tailored strategy. There is a good argument for incorporating drug therapy early. The longer it goes on the harder it is to get on top of. Honestly, I think you should get a vet behaviourist to take a look and advise you. Failing that, a VERY good trainer. One that is experienced in treating separation anxiety.

[Marion 01]

HarperGD, have you thought about getting another dog for company for him. I have had multiple dogs for as long as I can remember, big , small, medium, and never trained any of them, they were household companions, not working dogs, and have never had a problem with any of them. I was always their top dog, so never had a dominance thing going. If you have to train a dog the way your trainer said, I can't see the point. He is probably taking the vibes from you and your situation, and reacting to them, and upset when you leave him alone, he thinks you are leaving him too.

[Poodle Mum]

He is a baby poodle.....behaving exactly as a poodle does!!!! ;)

Come and join us at the poodle thread & chill-out :D .....and get the crate a few others have mentioned on many previous occasions!