Advice Appreciated

[twodoggies2001]

I have two mini schnauzers 1 almost 14 and the other almost 4. My question is about the 4 yr, old. We have 4 grandchildren ranging from 7 down to 20 months.

The grandchildren have always been taught to be gentle and respect the dogs as the dogs have been taught to be gentle with the children. My older mini doesn't interact with the children anymore and they just leave him alone. The younger boy plays with the three older children and is always in the middle of a game, invited or not, and he loves it when they come around. The 20 month old is never left alone with either of the dogs and she is taught to pat him gently and say 'nice doggy'. For the most part, doggy is great with her too, but last night, he was sitting next to me, and she came towards me too. He snapped at her, thankfully did not connect but it has me worried. I don't know if he meant to bite or if it was a warning. It was totally unprovoked. She is never rough with him because we don't allow it, so how do I handle this situation. I put it down to him being possessive of me but he has to learn to share lol.

[persephone]

I put it down to him being possessive of me but he has to learn to share lol.

He does need to learn ..and you need to learn how to manage /teach him Please contact a good professional person and have them visit you and work with you on this. With little kids around... there is no margin for error.

I suggest you contact Erny, Cosmolo, or Nekhbet all DOL members and professional who will be able to help you .

Best of luck with it all....

[Weasels]

+1 on the professional help. As well as the risk of physical harm there is chance the child could develop dog-fear if something does go down, which could be a lifetime of trouble for the child and the dogs around them.

It's also worrying the dog went to a snap without an escalation of warning noises & snarling first.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Weasels

[Dogsfevr]

So was the dog playing with the boys like you say & then after timeout snapped ??

Could the dog in all reality had enough of the children & you didn't see the signs ??

Minis shouldn't be possessive BUT we cant stress to our puppy owners the importance of making a Mini known you are approaching due to there eyebrows .Is the minis eye brows over grown??

Did the little one appear within its vision or out of vision & startle ??

I agree helped should be sort if you are unsure

[twodoggies2001]

So was the dog playing with the boys like you say & then after timeout snapped ??

Could the dog in all reality had enough of the children & you didn't see the signs ??

Minis shouldn't be possessive BUT we cant stress to our puppy owners the importance of making a Mini known you are approaching due to there eyebrows .Is the minis eye brows over grown??

Did the little one appear within its vision or out of vision & startle ??

I agree helped should be sort if you are unsure

The dog this time hadn't been playing with the children but was just sitting next to me on the floor at the dinner table. He is very food orientated but I make the point of never feeding him from the table. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to convince my husband the same. Maybe he thought he was getting a tidbit from the table. He had a grooming two weeks ago,so it wasn't his eyebrows. I don't think he was trying to bite her, I think he was just telling her to keep away from me. He is actually a very sweet boy in all other respects and I was totally surprised and disappointed to say the least that this happened. He has not done this before.

[Purdie]

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Edited September 17, 2011 by Purdie

[Dogsfevr]

Schnauzers are pigs & will eat till it kills them,

It seems there was circumstances that could have caused the reaction & in hindsight better management but given the fact you have many young kids around seeking help would be a good start so all family members (including hubby )are aware.

Purdie as far as chairs & beds rubbish my dogs have slept on the bed & slept on the couches for far to many years & never an issue .

Never done the eating before hand as in my view it means bugger all to the dog.

My guys are showdogs handled by strangers on occasions & young children .

Dogs are no different to us & can have there moments it deosn't always equate to all hell breaking loss.

Given how our minis sit looking at food it could be very likely the youngster did startle the dog even though no one thinks so

[Purdie]

Schnauzers are pigs & will eat till it kills them,

It seems there was circumstances that could have caused the reaction & in hindsight better management but given the fact you have many young kids around seeking help would be a good start so all family members (including hubby )are aware.

Purdie as far as chairs & beds rubbish my dogs have slept on the bed & slept on the couches for far to many years & never an issue .

Never done the eating before hand as in my view it means bugger all to the dog.

My guys are showdogs handled by strangers on occasions & young children .

Dogs are no different to us & can have there moments it deosn't always equate to all hell breaking loss.

Given how our minis sit looking at food it could be very likely the youngster did startle the dog even though no one thinks so

We can agree to disagree then showdog.I believe dogs are different to us.They are not human and not babies.

Once a dog snaps at anyone then you do have a problem.My advise was directed to the OP's situation.

If people want to have thier dogs sleep and eat with them then its thier business.But i am sure all the dog training books i have read can't all be rubbish.

[Weasels]

We can agree to disagree then showdog.I believe dogs are different to us.They are not human and not babies.

Once a dog snaps at anyone then you do have a problem.My advise was directed to the OP's situation.

If people want to have thier dogs sleep and eat with them then its thier business.But i am sure all the dog training books i have read can't all be rubbish.

Purdie with respect I think most modern training books are moving away from the dominance paradigm. While accepting that dogs can be dominant over certain things (bones, beds etc.) things like pulling on a walk and going through doors first are better explained by the reward is gives the dog (getting somewhere exciting sooner). I don't feed my dogs from the table because I don't want them begging at the table, and I don't want fur in my bed, but those are just personal choices and I don't think they make my dogs better behaved than someone who does let their dogs sleep in their bed.

The theory of general dominance was developed through observations of unrelated captive wolves, living in a very unnatural situation. These studies are now well established to be flawed, and since temprament is the thing we have changed most in the domestication process, applying wolf behaviour to dogs is shaky.

Sure, dogs are not humans. They are also not wolves. And humans are not dogs, and I don't think dogs see us as funny-looking dogs either. We have developed a unique bond through domestication, and the fact that we are still muddling through how to deal with this cross-species coexistence is shown by the diversity of advice on this forum

Sorry to twodoggies for going a bit off topic!

(edited for spelling)

Edited August 13, 2011 by Weasels

[hilaryo]

Our dogs sleep on our beds and we don't have problems with dominance. Training is what it is all about and in our case show training and conditioning is enough to keep them in line. For example things like having to get their nails cut, grooming, standing still when told, having their mouth examined, etc the list goes on. No they are not babies, they are dogs - but sleeping on our beds and cuddling up to us on the couch doesn't give them the upper hand in our house ;)

Back to the topic.

I agree, expert advice is a must particularly with such a young child involved. It's a shame because you have obviously been sensible and careful with the grandchildren and your dogs.

[twodoggies2001]

Thanks to all who have answered. Just to clear up a couple of points. The dogs do get fed before us, but they are fed away from everyone, as they are fed in the garage. I guess it's more for onvenience than anything else because I keep their meat out there. The younger boy in question does sleep on our bed and I find there are no dominance on his part. In fact, he doesn't come up unless he is invited. He gets off when he is told. He could easily bully his older housemate but he doesn't. He stands well back whilst my older boy eats, because he does this very slowly whilst Jasper gulps his down. He will not come near the other food bowl while it is being used for meals. Once it has been left, he will go check it out for any scraps.

At the park, he is mostly off lead and will immediately come when called so I don't feel he thinks he is top dog. He is obedient and knows what is expected of him and his position on the hierachy ladder, that's why this incident came as a total shock to me. He wasn't smacked, but just told NO. He plays with the children and really looks forward to our weekly family dinner gatherings. He knows they are coming because the dinner table is set differently to when it's just my husband and myself. I am just hoping that it was a once off incident, but we will all watch over him and my youngest grandchild at all times.

[juice]

Dogs don't snap for no reason, there would have been warning signs, perhaps so subtle you missed them.

With children involved, why would you not seek professional help, or are you waiting till contact is made?

There will be a next time.

[TsarsMum]

i agree with others you need to get some propper help him. he has done it once and it needs to be fixed before there is a next time and he makes contact and then it might mean putting him to sleep.

I would not be playing the waiting game. As vigilent as you might be it might be your back gets turned for a few seconds and thats all it takes for something to go terribly wrong.

and with more then one child its easy to take your eyes off them.

[twodoggies2001]

Dogs don't snap for no reason, there would have been warning signs, perhaps so subtle you missed them.

With children involved, why would you not seek professional help, or are you waiting till contact is made?

There will be a next time.

No, I am not waiting for contact to be made. I resent that remark. How did you figure out that I wouldn't be asking for this sort of help. As I have said before this incident was out of character for Jasper. You are correct in saying that perhaps I did in fact miss the warning signs and from now on I will definately be more even more vigilent than before.

[Zug Zug]

Sympathies twodoggies. It's not easy supervising young children and young dogs together. It sounds like you will be doing a combination of separating them and supervising them. I would certainly suggest you separate them at all times while there is food around.

If you don't have a crate for your dogs, I would strongly suggest you look into getting one. The great thing about crates is it keeps the dogs and the kids safe at the same time. I have had smallish dogs too and they sometimes feel stressed when young children are around. Not the kids' fault - but kids are not great readers of canine body language and they often treat dogs as if they are toys. Giving a dog somewhere safe to go while the kids are around will probably be welcomed by the dogs (of course you'll need to do some crate training to get them used to it, but it won't take long).

Also that means you can be sure where everyone is, and that everyone is safe. If need be, you can put a lock on the crate to prevent kids from breaking in to play with the dogs.

This has been a god-send with my dogs. They loved it. When we have BBQs they absolutely needed it. I love my friends' kids but kids and small dogs aren't always a great combination. So we crated the dogs while the food was out, and then towards the mid to late afternoon I would bring the dogs out for some very closely supervised interaction. Saved my bichon from no end of stress.

Just something worth considering. But I also agree that a dog that snaps at a kid could easily get into that habit so apart from shielding the dog from that kind of stress you also need to get very good at 'reading the signs' and a behaviourist can be a critical part of that process. It can be amazing what you don't see until someone else points it out!

[juice]

Don't ask for advice, then find it offensive then.

At no point did you say you were getting help. In fact you said you hoped it was a "one off" and would watch more closely, doesn't sound to me like you are seeking help.

Why bother asking for advice, then ignore it, or did you just not hear what you wanted?

[twodoggies2001]

Don't ask for advice, then find it offensive then.

At no point did you say you were getting help. In fact you said you hoped it was a "one off" and would watch more closely, doesn't sound to me like you are seeking help.

Why bother asking for advice, then ignore it, or did you just not hear what you wanted?

I am not ignoring advice at all and there is no need for you to get offensive. And I reiterate, how do you or anyone else know that I am not going to or have sought professional help.

[k9's-mum]

from a parents point of view, please get some help for your dog, even if it's just so it's an outsider looking in, to see if there is a problem or not

my son, wasnt as lucky as your grandson.the dog conected, and he has had 18 months worth of hospital trips to the city to have his eye/face reconstruction surgery.