Oscars Law

[toy dog]

But its not just one persons opinion - animal liberation has stated goals which dont discrimminate whether you breed registered or non registered - what do you need to see that - they chucked you out and you say its because they were jealous because you wre getting attention?????? Why would they care if you were getting attention if they agreed with you??????

thats just it what i was saying about genetics and breeding standards etc etc. can't really go into it all and make it all public i could be liable here, they didn't agree with me thats why they chucked me out. i was a ped breeder and they had a problem with ped dogs being represented when as you say, it doesn't matter whether a person has purebreds or crosses they don't distinquish between the two is what i found out. if you breed dogs you are automatically a bad person only in it to make a profit and there is nothing inbetween at all. judging by my conversation with a person that was pretty high up on the ladder. i cannot say any more than that Steve. please. i know where you are coming from and you are completely right.

but still i am against puppy farms like the rest of us are ofcourse we all are.

ETA:

The trouble with this is that not all puppy farms are bad when it comes to conditions. I'm assuming this by the way, but I'm absolutely certain that out there are puppy farms who are 100% up to scratch with every regulation and who's dogs lead a pretty ok life. Does this make it right still? I think not because profit is still the motive, but this is the hardest argument when it comes to puppy farms. If they're clean, well cared for and not suffering then your average person will want to know where's the harm? Like some lady who's dog has a litter of mutts every year or so that she then supplies to the local pet shop. Right or wrong? Wrong in my eyes, ok in many others. These are the attitudes I believe you guys should be worrying about. Of course animal cruelty cases will always make people upset, but not all puppy farms involve cruelty and neglect and it's hard to argue the case against them when registered pure breed breeders have also been busted for neglect and cruelty. I thought that the idea behind Oscar's Law was to get rid of animal sales from pet shops. How will protesting about a perfectly legal and even moral (in the eyes of some) puppy farm have any impact on these sales whatsoever? You just look like a bunch of animal rights crazies who don't want any dogs bred or owned ever.

this is what i've been saying there are probably farms who are state of the art but the motive is still the same still breeding bitches every season and pumping out pups into society that receive no backing because there are just too many to cater for and find each and every one a suitable home, these dogs don't get the opportunity to be family pets in a persons home so the farmer has no way of knowing if their personalities are indeed suited to family life so could be breeding terrible temperamented dogs that don't make good pets for people. the pups aren't socialised so get shoved from cage to class cage no interaction, the list goes on why its not a good idea. dogs are very human orientated animals and these dogs being intensively farmed do not end up fitting the criteria. dogs are not livestock and need training, socialisation and interaction with humans they don't get it in a farm environment. plus genetic problems are not taken into account either. the same can be said for a BYB only in it for profit.

this is what i tell people. and why it is so wrong. i thought oscars law was to rid animals from petshops too but as i read more and more and talk to people there are other ideas coming forward as well with this one and it does scare me.

Edited August 14, 2011 by toy dog

[toy dog]

The definition has been set by the RSPCA and various welfare groups. No part of that not one little bit relates to what they breed or whether they research bloodlines etc.

don't get me started on RSPCA and what they define the main thing for me is they coupled with oscar law people and got the message out there that puppy farms are there to the general community all the other stuff they say some of it, i don't really agree with, really, they'd be better to define puppy farms as people who breed dogs for profit in substandard conditions.

but for me a farmer can have registered dogs too i have come across many over the years, they don't give a shite about the dogs.....it doesn't exclude them just becuase they have purebreds i am not that shallow to suggest that pedigree breeders are any way better. its an individual case by case thing, but what im saying is a person that breeds cross breeds has less of a chance to be able to do all the things an ethical registered breeder does breeding dogs for a purpose other than for profit.

[toy dog]

Maybe you could take this to VCAT next time?

why don't you take all that to VCAT you seem to have it all worked out pretty well.

[Steve]

this is not what i said at all and not what i mean. my theory is, if dogs are going to be pumped out left right and centre from point of sale from the breeder end to make sure people are going to be suitable and then offer quality after sales service would equal less dogs being unwanted. not less dogs being bred. so to fill the quota of people wanting pets and the demand we should pump out pups in farms? because ped breeders are in the minority and cannot supply the demand? as i say we are a very disposable society today and people want things now without thought or planning for the future.

You dont know how this particular establishment is going to operate - what if they do make an effort to make sure they find suitable homes for them,offer after sales service whether their pups will be sold from their premises where people can meet them and the parents etc or be sold in pet shops. Would it then be O.K. for them to apply for a DA to have 50 dogs on their property? Where dogs are concerned it has always been a disposable product. Im old enough to remember when people in my neighbour hood shot or drowned dogs they no longer wanted, had by accident and couldnt get rid of or it had killed the neighbours chooks etc. There were less people buying dogs and planning for the future 20 years ago than there is now.

Whether we like it or not its a supply and demand factor and commercial breeders and pet shops are not having any problem in finding homes for their puppies or they would stop breeding them and stop taking them in.

Why not concentrate on the people who are buying them? how is stopping people form breeding them in case the person buying them is an idiot going to help stop dogs suffering?

[Steve]

But its not just one persons opinion - animal liberation has stated goals which dont discrimminate whether you breed registered or non registered - what do you need to see that - they chucked you out and you say its because they were jealous because you wre getting attention?????? Why would they care if you were getting attention if they agreed with you??????

thats just it what i was saying about genetics and breeding standards etc etc. can't really go into it all and make it all public i could be liable here, they didn't agree with me thats why they chucked me out. i was a ped breeder and they had a problem with ped dogs being represented when as you say, it doesn't matter whether a person has purebreds or crosses they don't distinquish between the two is what i found out. if you breed dogs you are automatically a bad person only in it to make a profit and there is nothing inbetween at all. judging by my conversation with a person that was pretty high up on the ladder. i cannot say any more than that Steve. please. i know where you are coming from and you are completely right.

but still i am against puppy farms like the rest of us are ofcourse we all are.

O.K. Its good to be against puppy farms but running with animal lib is folly.

[toy dog]

But its not just one persons opinion - animal liberation has stated goals which dont discrimminate whether you breed registered or non registered - what do you need to see that - they chucked you out and you say its because they were jealous because you wre getting attention?????? Why would they care if you were getting attention if they agreed with you??????

thats just it what i was saying about genetics and breeding standards etc etc. can't really go into it all and make it all public i could be liable here, they didn't agree with me thats why they chucked me out. i was a ped breeder and they had a problem with ped dogs being represented when as you say, it doesn't matter whether a person has purebreds or crosses they don't distinquish between the two is what i found out. if you breed dogs you are automatically a bad person only in it to make a profit and there is nothing inbetween at all. judging by my conversation with a person that was pretty high up on the ladder. i cannot say any more than that Steve. please. i know where you are coming from and you are completely right.

but still i am against puppy farms like the rest of us are ofcourse we all are.

O.K. Its good to be against puppy farms but running with animal lib is folly.

i can't speak for anyone else but i am not RUNNING with animal lib or anyone else, im not in with them or involved with them myself.....I am just following along what they are doing and saying on their webs, because i am interested. they don't talk about ped breeders out in the open mainly they speak about puppy farms so in my eyes all good. there are some reg breeders that still get to speak as they just generally speak about pup farms some are involved in rescue as well they just have a problem with me because i talked too much about pedigrees apparently which is a no-no in their eyes.

[toy dog]

You dont know how this particular establishment is going to operate - what if they do make an effort to make sure they find suitable homes for them,offer after sales service whether their pups will be sold from their premises where people can meet them and the parents etc or be sold in pet shops. Would it then be O.K. for them to apply for a DA to have 50 dogs on their property? Where dogs are concerned it has always been a disposable product. Im old enough to remember when people in my neighbour hood shot or drowned dogs they no longer wanted, had by accident and couldnt get rid of or it had killed the neighbours chooks etc. There were less people buying dogs and planning for the future 20 years ago than there is now.

Whether we like it or not its a supply and demand factor and commercial breeders and pet shops are not having any problem in finding homes for their puppies or they would stop breeding them and stop taking them in.

Why not concentrate on the people who are buying them? how is stopping people form breeding them in case the person buying them is an idiot going to help stop dogs suffering?

well as i've been saying a few times, these people have a history with keeping dogs and i believe a leopard doesn't change its spots overnight. no it wouldnt be okay for me becaue they are still breeding dogs for money and they are still going to pump out how many pups they can pump out. which could be hundreds or thousands, keeping 50 just includes the adults it doesn't include the pups produced. so they pretty much have a free reign on that just as long as they get rid of the pups before 12 weeks when they have to register them with the council.

my own auntie was a puppy farmer herself, she was only concerned with making money off ped dogs and now i realise that but in those days it was never spoken off and never concentrated on but she was also very cruel to the pups that were unhealthy but still alive, no one hardly ever took dogs to the vets to be put down, they either drowned them or buried them alive. i've heard all the stories and it makes me sick. this is going back in the 1950's 1960's so a very long time ago.

no thats what im saying i agree with you, as long as the public buys and wants these petshop puppies and this allows farmers to keep churing them out, we will never stop the cycle, it is up to joe public they have the power to stop this. attitudes have to change whether they will or not i don't know. but some say the tide is turning as in recent years thanks to groups like oscar law and rescue and RSPCA (not my fav people ) its out there for the public to consider.

Edited August 14, 2011 by toy dog

[jaybeece]

Toy Dog you are preaching to the converted. I was brought up by anti pet shop/anti breeder parents, I don't need a speal about dogs and how they should be bred because I've been fighting this for 30 years.

Nor do most people on this forum. We're on the same page mate, just interpreting it differently. Save your essays for people who don't know any better.

[toy dog]

Toy Dog you are preaching to the converted. I was brought up by anti pet shop/anti breeder parents, I don't need a speal about dogs and how they should be bred because I've been fighting this for 30 years.

Nor do most people on this forum. We're on the same page mate, just interpreting it differently. Save your essays for people who don't know any better.

i realise this but i am getting asked questions and i have to explain myself as people are trying to summerise what im saying in a completely different way jaybeece

plus we are not the only ones that read these forums if you do a google search on a particular subject these forums will come up so the public do read these too. not just "us"....mate....

ETA: i do believe i've just been told to p***ss off so i will then jaybeece obviously you have taken upon yourself to speak for everyone in these forums and no one is interested in reading my posts. everyone else is writing "essays" as you have so politely put so they can but i can't.

Edited August 14, 2011 by toy dog

[Nic.B]

Quote;

‘Address it; manage pound systems better. But it wont change the situation on the outside ie: owners no longer wanting their pets, or no longer being able or willing to be responsible for them.

The numbers of dogs euthd is a pound management issue

not an 'overpopulation' issue.

The numbers of dogs received through pounds is what your yardstick should be to assess the number of dogs unwanted (or the excess amount of dogs in your overpopulation notion).’

Obviously some pounds and shelters could be managed better. Many are doing a fantastic job. I disagree it is a council issue alone, IMO that is a cop out. It is very much a community issue.

In terms of stats re dogs received through pounds/shelters. I will state again that without stats from all pounds and shelters you will not get an authentic picture. I will also say again that it is not compulsory for pounds/shelters to hand in stats, many do not.

Quote;

“If there really is an overpopulation epidemic, then the numbers of dogs received by pounds today,

would be in 'epidemic' proportions

compared to the numbers of dogs received by pounds a decade ago.

RSPCA NSW:

in 1999-2000 they received 20,631 dogs, killed 44.7% of them and Rehomed 36.5%.

......

in 2009-2010

RSPCA NSW received 20,619 dogs [they transferred 709 to other non RSPCA facilities ie RESCUE],

killed 40.5% of them and rehomed 24.8%.”

I have not said there is an “overpopulation epidemic” I have said that the number of unwanted/abandoned companion animals is at epidemic proportions. IMO this has an enormous amount to do with point of sale, matching people and dogs responsibly, follow up and lifetime support as a bare minimum.

RSPCA stats don’t cover all pounds and shelters, so it’s a moot point. “Transferred” also includes dogs transferred to council pounds/shelters btw.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Nic.B

[Nic.B]

Yes I understand this Lilli.

Alyosha did reconise how "off topic" her comments were.

So, back to topic, and more importantly your emphasis on "Pound Stats'

Which there is a universal lack of.

Maybe you just can't find them.

LOL! Dont worry Lilli, I most certainly have the figures for pounds and shelters who do hand in yearly figures

[Nic.B]

Toy Dog you have made some excellent points along with others. Chin up At least we all have one thing in common a great love of dogs!

[toy dog]

thanks nic.b

you'd think the way i was spoken to i am suggesting my way or the highway mack, instead of trying to defend myself with incorrect assumptions and just expressing the way i feel which happens to coincide with alot of people apparently. i do agree with what most has written in the DEBATE and i do try to consider what is written by others if I can. this is what we are all doing debating and alot of individual opinions are expressed in a forum. if we all knew what each other was thinking and knew the whole lot about everything it would either be very boring or we'd have no need to have forums in the first place would we.

Edited August 15, 2011 by toy dog

[Nic.B]

thanks nic.b

you'd think the way i was spoken to i am suggesting my way or the highway mack, instead of trying to defend myself with incorrect assumptions and just expressing the way i feel which happens to coincide with alot of people apparently. i do agree with what most has written in the DEBATE and i do try to consider what is written by others if I can. this is what we are all doing debating and alot of individual opinions are expressed in a forum. if we all knew what each other was thinking and knew the whole lot about everything it would either be very boring or we'd have no need to have forums in the first place would we.

I think you have done very well under difficult circumstances It is important to express how you feel and what you are passionate about, and you are right, lots of others feel the same way.

These debates have been going on for years and years on DOL.

I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

[Nic.B]

Hopefully this is not too much off topic.

The other night I watched this program on TV of the world’s most greediest people which shared what disgusting lengths some people will go to for money.

There was one hideous human who made millions illegally harvesting body parts and tissue from deceased.

I was mind blown at the enormity of it. I don’t know how he slept at night, but then again he didn’t have a conscience.

This man stole body parts and sold them off making multiple millions.

He did no health checks at all. Body parts were removed without permission and sold off from even HIV, Hepatitis, cancer etc etc patients.

I felt so deeply for the family members whose loved ones had been so disgracefully mutilated for profit and also the recipients of the tissues, organs, bones etc as they now have deadly disease hanging over their heads.

I don’t care who you are, If you are geared simply for profit, will sell to anyone who asks with no checks or support, offer no health checks and breed back to back over multiple years or accept puppies from a female bred this way then you can go jump.

The above story deals with humans and even then it was hard enough to prove and get him. He got away with blue murder for years and years on end, abused thousands and made millions and millions.

Companion animals bred simply for profit, who are poorly homed and are suffering as a result are IMO a captive workforce. It must never, ever be tolerated.

[Alyosha]

I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media.

Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not.

[Nic.B]

I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media.

Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not.

Rubbish.

I will not ever understand why registered breeders are not doing more to promote/educate re Pure Breeds?

I just googled “I want to buy a puppy” all I came up with was puppy farms, pet shops and back yard breeders.

Even a PP trainer and behaviourist LOL.

IMO you guys should be up there first hit on google offering education and advice re Pure Breeds (or even warning re crosses of breeds) and what owning a puppy entails.

Instead you all sit back in an insular world complaining about your rights being disrupted due to so many dogs being euthenased and doing nothing.

Seriously you guys are doing nothing to help yourselves or your breeds at all.

[Shazzapug]

I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media.

Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not.

Exactly and those that think otherwise are the suckers making it easier for them to accoumplish it.

[Shazzapug]

I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media.

Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not.

Rubbish.

I will not ever understand why registered breeders are not doing more to promote/educate re Pure Breeds?

I just googled “I want to buy a puppy” all I came up with was puppy farms, pet shops and back yard breeders.

Even a PP trainer and behaviourist LOL.

IMO you guys should be up there first hit on google offering education and advice re Pure Breeds (or even warning re crosses of breeds) and what owning a puppy entails.

Instead you all sit back in an insular world complaining about your rights being disrupted due to so many dogs being euthenased and doing nothing.

Seriously you guys are doing nothing to help yourselves or your breeds at all.

You have no idea what breeders are doing for their breeds. And if you have an easy way to get to the top of the list in a google search feel free to enlighten me please!!

[WreckitWhippet]

It's the not the pedigree registered dogs that are being euth's in large numbers...

Further promoting pedigree dogs from ethical breeders, isn't going to reduce the number of dogs being PTS. We cannot produce enough quality dogs as it is, promoting them will just make our waiting lists longer. We can talk to people wanting pups til we are blue in the face, we can speak or the attrocities of puppy farms and what they registered breeder can offer, in terms of support and a quality puppy. It's going to have no impact, if we cannot supply the potential buyers with a puppy.

I have a website, show my dogs, race my dogs, talk to people in the street and the dogs are a wlaking advertisement for well bred pedigree animals. There's not much more to be done.