Oscars Law

[Steve]

Why would you base your stats on the number of dogs euthd?

and why are you centering the discussion around the issue of why dogs end up in the shelter? we are talking about whether we should have puppy farms or not. whether a dog ends up in there because the owner cannot afford to look after it, can't deal with its personality, is moving house or going overseas there;s a million and one reasons why a dog ends up in the pound or shelters across the country.

there's no denying that our shelters and pounds regardless of the reasons why dogs end up in there in the first place have alot of dogs in there that they are trying to find homes for. i think we can all agree on that principle can't we? and whether they have to put them to sleep is also not the issue, they put them to sleep we've established that from not having enough room because of mismanagement, i get that, or because the dog is not suitable to be rehomed or a million and one reasons why there too.

showing that you can research something and look in the internet is commendable i can do that too but there is no denying the fact that we as a society being a throw away one not valuing our domestic pets (whether thats been the case for many years or not) don't need to be adding to the number of dogs needing homes good or bad by breeding up thousands in these intensive dog farming establishments.

if the pup or dog was looked after from the point of sale as Nic.B. pointed out the poor doggy nic.b is saving didn't have backup from the breeder who bred him. which if he had he would never have ended up being looked after in the system and adding to the numbers already in there. it brings a whole different other argument to the peice of petshops not knowing how to properly look after the breed in question so is unable to pass that onto the buyer, the buyer doesn't get the support to ask question and prevent the dog being cast off to welfare organisations. this is a very common story as i say, dogs and cats and our domestic animals are disposable and the culture in our society leans towards this especially when thousands upon thousands of dogs are bred in farms and not backed up and sold off to shops who have no idea the requirements that these poor puppies need but are passed off without the knowledge there and then discarded when it all gets a bit too hard.

a breeder who cares about what they are breeding, will backup and answer questions and find suitable homes so the dumpage rate is reduced drastically so is this all erroneous Lilli by your standards then?

Well bugger me- if we are talking about whether we should have puppy farms or not and thats all - then thats easy - No we shouldnt. That is of course we are all on the same page as far as defining what is a puppy farm is concerned.

However, silly me I thought we were talking about protesting against the recent decision to allow one person to have a permit to have 50 dogs on their property and breed them.

Better go back and have a look at who started centering the discussion about why dogs end up in shelters - dont think that was Lilli.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Steve

[Summersaint]

Best of luck with your march tomorrow....sending over all my support for your cause

[jaybeece]

I think there is an overlooked element in this VCAT puppy farm case. The VCAT has made the decision based on legal principles. That's what they have to do. The emotion side can't apply. Whether we believe it should or not is irrelevant. I feel for the Council in this case, it will be a regulatory nightmare for them. But they will need to deal with it through correct channels, not necessarily emotive ones.

That aside, doesn't Oscar's Law want to ban the sale of puppies online?? So how does it get promoted on this website, which promotes purebred dogs, and provides a service for advertising those dogs online?? I have pups advertised online at the moment? Does that make me an evil, commercial, profit driven puppy farmer???

I like the basic ideas behind things like Oscar's Law. But I think many of us have learned over time that it's not the basic idea that is concerning, but the other less promoted agendas involved in these things that sneak in under the radar.

PETA is a prime example. "Yay - let's promote anti cruelty etc etc". Then comes the less obvious agendas of anti-companion animals... and worse...

I am against commercial puppy farms. I have been in some really bad ones... been there, seen it, smelled it. Certainly don't support it. But I have said before and will say again - additional regulations are only as good as the regulatory enforcement infrastructure supporting them. Otherwise they only serve to regulate the honest people, who are not in the wrong to start with.

It's all well and good "insisting" that the Govt regulates the industry, runs education campaigns etc etc. Where does the money come from to do it? Economies are fragile enough at the moment...

EFS

This post hasn't had enough love. Well written, and I think it's sitting bang in the middle of both sides of this argument. No-one on this forum wants puppy farms to operate, at the heart of it we all feel the same. It's just disagreement over methods and details.

Good luck with the protest, but don't expect it to change things. For those of you who are breeders tread carefully as non-dog people often don't distinguish between ethical registered breeders and puppy farms. What applies to one can apply to the other, make sure you don't protest your way out of your own right to own and breed dogs.

I doubt that someone who needs to house up to 50 dogs isn't a puppy farm, but as Alyosha said at least they're going about it legally instead of flying under the radar. This way they must adhere to basic conditions and are known to the council. Surely this can't be a bad thing? Isn't this better than stashing them in the house or hidden out of sight in crowded, dark sheds?

My gut feeling is that targeting the source (especially one who's doing it by the book) will get you nowhere, as long as there is demand there will be puppy farms.

[toy dog]

Better go back and have a look at who started centering the discussion about why dogs end up in shelters - dont think that was Lilli.

ok i will.........

i said:

the amount of dogs needing homes in rescue organisations and shelters and the are overflowing why have these intense breeding farms of our dogs when there are plenty waiting for homes and are being put down

i believe i said why have puppy farms not why dogs are in pounds in the first place. if all the dogs in rescue/shelters/pounds had homes to go to or homes could be found we wouldn't have any dogs in the system at all. my point was churning out even more puppies out into society when we have dogs looking for homes and being killed needlessly (for whatever reason) ETA: knowing "why" doesn't really help the fact that there are lots of dogs needing homes in our shelter/rescue/pound system. i am not disagreeing with the reasons "why" with Lilli either.

Lilli has said:

I believe if you look at population growth in the last decade

Vs

the number of dogs in shelters

you would see that your hysterical assertions

are false.

You claim dogs are dying and end up in pounds

because there is an oversupply of dogs / undersupply of homes.

This is incorrect.

It is hysterics when you use false emotive arguments as a means of persuasion.

if all dogs had a home to go to they wouldn't be in the system in the first place would they. so as a society we still keep pumping out pups and yes

as long as there is demand there will be puppy farms.

agree

I doubt that someone who needs to house up to 50 dogs isn't a puppy farm

a "farmer" by defination is someone making money on their animals the purpose of breeding is for money. and that is the number of adult dogs i don't believe it will take into account pups produced as they won't be old enough to be registered so technically like alot of farms they can produce how many pups they want as long as they are sold at a certain age. one farm i viewed the documents off had a very high death rate but still managed to produce 1800 pups in one period alone. and it is obvious by the breeds they want to obtain in this farm that they are going to cross them, he claims he is doing a service for the community and has done for the last 8 years by buying and selling dogs and acting as some kind of an agent. i fail to see how that is helping the community.

Edited August 13, 2011 by toy dog

[Missymoo]

Sorry on iPhone .. Wow Steve great post and thoroughly explained. I humbly apologize to you and the MDBA, after reading that post I do understand where u are coming from now..

Still none of this makes any difference. You want only registered breeders to breed dogs - so do I - but there are a hell of a lot of people who also want people to breed designer dogs. There are also lots of people who dont want anyone to breed any dogs whO see the bigger picture much more clearly than many of us do.

no, what im saying is breeding should be done not for a humans own selfish bank account but for the welfare of the dogs they have. the animals rely on us to look after them and it is up to us to make sure they come into this world as healthy as we can by researching, now puppy farmers with 2-3-4 breeds in the one poor puppy are unable to do this because they know nothing about the dogs they are breeding and don't want to know all they want to know about is how fast they can sell when they'll be out the door and how much money they will get. the pedigree dog if bred correctly with care is a far superior choice for consumers and people wake up to this after being stung.

i've been told this too by a person in council, there is a market for these designer dogs so why not? there is a market for any puppies really, people just want a pet puppy so will end up going to a petshop or puppy farm until they learn how the dog was bred and how they are helping to keep thousands more dogs in prisons their whole life.

You still dont get it. You say people shouldnt breed dogs for profit but for the welfare of the dogs - but the push is that even if purebred breeders dont primarily breed for profit they dont care about the welfare of their dogs - ETA Pedigree dogs exposed. You say that the pedigree dog if bred with care is a far superior choice but you dont hear that the majority of people are not agreeing with you - they are saying that the designer dog if bred with care is a far superior animal - but you cant see we dont get to tell people what they can breed and whether they should make money from it. In Australia it is a legitimate business and federal law says you cant prevent someone from doing something you dont agree with just because you think they are manufacturing an inferior product - if this were the case since pedigree dogs exposed purebred breeders would be even more endangered than they are now.

They say they will breed puppies with their welfare as one of their goals - they have a development application which complies with the regulations and until they do compromise the welfare of their dogs all of this just makes it look like its a bunch of animal rights nutters.

The big picture is to push for breeders to be separated and for each group - designer dog breeders and purebred breeders to fight against each other so each help to bring in laws against each other because they know in Australia you cant have one law for one and not the other .

Its difficult for me to see that people cant understand that in this country you cant stop someone from doing the same as anyone else can in case they muck it up because one group doesnt approve of their motives.

Please dont speak to me of dogs kept in rotten conditions in commercial premises because Im one of the girls who have been up to my armpits cleaning up after breeders over the past several months who have had dogs kept in the most appalling conditions you could possibly imagine. Where we have had to put on masks and overalls to enter people's bedrooms where they keep their dogs sitting in 6 inches of shit and walking on the dead bodies the breeder cant be bothered to remove. But they are registered only have 10 fertile bitches and they dont breed for money and they are purebreds ? Kidding right? Some of these have been purebred breeders still to this day active in the show ring - who take a dog out on the week end which has had the honor of living in a crate in the loungeroom separate from the current breeding stock in the bedrooms and everyone cheers them on ! Take a good long look at those in this country who have been pinged for animal welfare issues and some of them have been judges and owners of purebred dogs who say they dont breed for profit and everyone can see it.

So do we say purebred breeders shouldnt breed dogs because some of them do the wrong thing? Do we watch PDE and say in case all purebred breeders muck it up we will stop everyone from breeding purebred dogs ?Maybe its better to take em on one bit at a time? Ban them breeding some breeds or outlaw some of their practices? Of course not so why cant you see we cant stop someone else in case they do the wrong thing or because we believe our puppies are superior when there is a ground swell telling the world the opposite.

Why cant you see that if you fight to prevent one breeder having rights that this will inevitably affect our rights. If we are going to protest against numbers, breeds or motivations and carry on in case they do the wrong thing and we win the very first thing that happens is that the laws have to treat us all equally. Mandatory codes and domestic animal laws apply to us all. In australia they have to at federal level which overides all others.

You are in bed with animal liberation and animal liberation want the breeding of all dogs stopped. Part of the plan is to divide us and have us fight each other to bring in laws which will affect us all.

Beating the hell out of someone who asks to be able to do something on their property with a desire to be out in the open and easily located and inspected etc makes no sense to me when the alternative is for breeders to hide away and keep their animals in cramped filthy conditions in bedrooms and sheds in fear if they ask permission and are prepared to do it all they are told that they will cop this.

I want them out in the open so we know who they are and where they are. I want all breeders regardless of what they breed or what their stated motivation is or how many they own or breed to be accountable for the welfare of their animals and thats not possible if we show everyone if they put their hand up we will make their lives hell.

If you continue to judge people in case they do something wrong then there isnt much point in sooking because they do it to you.

Before you all start moaning that I am supporting puppy mills, or designer dog breeding or that I am anti purebred breeders or anti show ring - all of which is stupid and nothing could be further from the truth - before you back a call to protest against this decision ask yourself whether or not that will help or hinder . I think it will hinder and make it more likely that more dogs will suffer and whilst you are more than welcome to disagree and continue on your path all I ask is that you think it through for the sake of the dogs. There is so much going on behind the scenes and I think animal rights are playing you like a fiddle.

[toy dog]

For those of you who are breeders tread carefully as non-dog people often don't distinguish between ethical registered breeders and puppy farms. What applies to one can apply to the other, make sure you don't protest your way out of your own right to own and breed dogs.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf.

[Steve]

For those of you who are breeders tread carefully as non-dog people often don't distinguish between ethical registered breeders and puppy farms. What applies to one can apply to the other, make sure you don't protest your way out of your own right to own and breed dogs.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf.

So why do you support them?

[BJean]

sorry - Lilli, do you ever come across Tazis or Taigans in Kazak?

woops I missed this

No Tazis I have seen in Kazak

but there are Tazis in Turkey -

(the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi

is this what you mean?

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[Nic.B]

sorry - Lilli, do you ever come across Tazis or Taigans in Kazak?

woops I missed this

No Tazis I have seen in Kazak

but there are Tazis in Turkey -

(the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi

is this what you mean?

Cant you both PM each other with OT junk?

You have not responded to my posts re pound stats Lilli.

I am looking forward to your response, you are avoiding so far.

[toy dog]

For those of you who are breeders tread carefully as non-dog people often don't distinguish between ethical registered breeders and puppy farms. What applies to one can apply to the other, make sure you don't protest your way out of your own right to own and breed dogs.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf.

So why do you support them?

to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC.

but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on.

[BJean]

sorry - Lilli, do you ever come across Tazis or Taigans in Kazak?

woops I missed this

No Tazis I have seen in Kazak

but there are Tazis in Turkey -

(the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi

is this what you mean?

Cant you both PM each other with OT junk?

You have not responded to my posts re pound stats Lilli.

I am looking forward to your response, you are avoiding so far.

tsk

How rude.

Alyosha has just as much right to participate in thread discussion and ask questions, as you do.

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[Nic.B]

sorry - Lilli, do you ever come across Tazis or Taigans in Kazak?

woops I missed this

No Tazis I have seen in Kazak

but there are Tazis in Turkey -

(the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi

is this what you mean?

Cant you both PM each other with OT junk?

You have not responded to my posts re pound stats Lilli.

I am looking forward to your response, you are avoiding so far.

tsk

How rude.

Alyosha has just as much right to participate in thread discussion and ask questions, as you do.

Yes I understand this Lilli.

Alyosha did reconise how "off topic" her comments were.

So, back to topic, and more importantly your emphasis on "Pound Stats'

Which there is a universal lack of.

[jaybeece]

to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC.

but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on.

The trouble with this is that not all puppy farms are bad when it comes to conditions. I'm assuming this by the way, but I'm absolutely certain that out there are puppy farms who are 100% up to scratch with every regulation and who's dogs lead a pretty ok life.

Does this make it right still? I think not because profit is still the motive, but this is the hardest argument when it comes to puppy farms. If they're clean, well cared for and not suffering then your average person will want to know where's the harm?

Like some lady who's dog has a litter of mutts every year or so that she then supplies to the local pet shop. Right or wrong? Wrong in my eyes, ok in many others.

These are the attitudes I believe you guys should be worrying about. Of course animal cruelty cases will always make people upset, but not all puppy farms involve cruelty and neglect and it's hard to argue the case against them when registered pure breed breeders have also been busted for neglect and cruelty.

I thought that the idea behind Oscar's Law was to get rid of animal sales from pet shops. How will protesting about a perfectly legal and even moral (in the eyes of some) puppy farm have any impact on these sales whatsoever? You just look like a bunch of animal rights crazies who don't want any dogs bred or owned ever.

[BJean]

The number of dogs euthed is most certainly cause for concern and something that needs to be addressed.

Address it; manage pound systems better. But it wont change the situation on the outside ie: owners no longer wanting their pets, or no longer being able or willing to be responsible for them.

The numbers of dogs euthd is a pound management issue

not an 'overpopulation' issue.

The numbers of dogs received through pounds is what your yardstick should be to assess the number of dogs unwanted (or the excess amount of dogs in your overpopulation notion).

Rescue are very active and are doing a fantastic job in rehoming animals from all sources who have been dumped in recent years.

Many pounds and shelters are also working much more proactively in rehoming/reuniting abandoned pets. Compared to 50 or 60 years ago, or even 10 years ago, or even last year.

If there really is an overpopulation epidemic, then the numbers of dogs received by pounds today,

would be in 'epidemic' proportions

compared to the numbers of dogs received by pounds a decade ago.

RSPCA NSW:

in 1999-2000 they received 20,631 dogs, killed 44.7% of them and Rehomed 36.5%.

......

in 2009-2010

RSPCA NSW received 20,619 dogs [they transferred 709 to other non RSPCA facilities ie RESCUE],

killed 40.5% of them and rehomed 24.8%.

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

There is no doubt that the issue of unwanted/abandoned family pets entering shelters and pounds is at epidemic proportions.

So Australia has been suffering from a dog overpopulation crisis of epidemic proportions since 1997?

AUSTRALIA WIDE RSPCA BRANCHES AND SHELTERS 2009 - 2010

DOGS RECEIVED - 68,746

EUTHANISED - 20, 177 (29.4%)

REHOMED - 19,007 (27.6%)

RECLAIMED - 24,223 (35.2%)

AUSTRALIA WIDE RSPCA BRANCHES AND SHELTERS 1997-1998

DOGS RECEIVED - 80,776

EUTHANISED - 36,037 (44.6%)

REHOMED / RECLAIMED - 37,503 (46.4%)

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

Yes I understand this Lilli.

Alyosha did reconise how "off topic" her comments were.

So, back to topic, and more importantly your emphasis on "Pound Stats'

Which there is a universal lack of.

Maybe you just can't find them.

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

You claim dogs are dying and end up in pounds

because there is an oversupply of dogs / undersupply of homes.

This is incorrect.

It is hysterics when you use false emotive arguments as a means of persuasion.

if all dogs had a home to go to they wouldn't be in the system in the first place would they. so as a society we still keep pumping out pups and yes

If all dogs have homes to go to, it will not prevent them from being unwanted

hence the dogs would still be in the system.

According to your overpopulation myth:

Less puppies/dogs available for sale,

would engender better dog owners that fulfill the responsibilities of owning a dog

so all dogs would have homes to go to and not end up in the pound system.

Under this cause and effect paradigm, puppy/dog availability is the 'cost driver' for the reasons dogs end up in pounds -

whereby the numbers of dogs in pounds represents the amount by which dog/puppy numbers exceed the demand for dogs/puppies:community,

and the scarce resource that is in 'undersupply', ie homes in the community

regards pound dogs, pedigree dogs; all dogs as perfect substitutes.

Hence 10 beagle puppies becoming available from a breeder in Ballan, takes away 10 potential homes for the 4 chi/JRT bitzer mixes, 2 bull arabs, 1 GSD and 3 doodles at the local pound.

ie there is a direct relationship between the number of puppies produced and the number of dogs in pounds.

You could actually formulate a mathematical model for your overpopulation myth, and use the algorithm to provide outputs estimating how many puppies should be available for sale (dependent variable), based on a function of the numbers of dogs in pounds (independent variable).

Maybe you could take this to VCAT next time?

Edited August 14, 2011 by lilli

[Steve]

For those of you who are breeders tread carefully as non-dog people often don't distinguish between ethical registered breeders and puppy farms. What applies to one can apply to the other, make sure you don't protest your way out of your own right to own and breed dogs.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf.

So why do you support them?

to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC.

but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on.

But its not just one persons opinion - animal liberation has stated goals which dont discrimminate whether you breed registered or non registered - what do you need to see that - they chucked you out and you say its because they were jealous because you wre getting attention?????? Why would they care if you were getting attention if they agreed with you?????? Any one who applies for a DA to breed dogs no matter what type or breed or cross breed they intend to breed will get the boots into them like this and that stops everyone from being out in the open. It doesnt stop them from breeding dogs and if they are going to have to go through this they are more likely to breed more dogs not less when they finally get their approvals. While you are banging away about how people should breed dogs and research bloodlines etc the cross bred breeders are banging back saying if they cross breed every litter there isnt any need to do this to eliminate recessives. AND they have a lot more on their sde than we do on ours.

lets just be hypothetical for a minute - lets say you own 25 chi's and because you live in Victoria you have to apply for a DA to enable you to be able to do that - do you really think they would turn a blind eye and allow you to carry on as you do without a wimper because its purebred dogs ?

For the record what you think is a puppy farm isnt really counted. The definition has been set by the RSPCA and various welfare groups. No part of that not one little bit relates to what they breed or whether they research bloodlines etc.

A puppy farmer is defined by someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions- in Victoria the standard conditions are set via a mandatory code - ask yourself if someone who owns 25 chi's and breeds and whelps them in their home is fitting the set standard conditions for breeding dogs - if not they are puppy farmers and no one - I mean no one gives a shit whether the dogs are purebred or not. So even though this chi breeder may think they are doing it right testing and researching bloodlines etc would you recommend they put their hand up and ask for a DA ? Are you sure it will all just be given a tick and no one will get beaten up for asking? Or perhaps the magic number is 50.

I can just see everyone who wants to breed dogs rushing out to ask for a DA - not.

[Steve]

to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC.

but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on.

The trouble with this is that not all puppy farms are bad when it comes to conditions. I'm assuming this by the way, but I'm absolutely certain that out there are puppy farms who are 100% up to scratch with every regulation and who's dogs lead a pretty ok life.

Does this make it right still? I think not because profit is still the motive, but this is the hardest argument when it comes to puppy farms. If they're clean, well cared for and not suffering then your average person will want to know where's the harm?

Like some lady who's dog has a litter of mutts every year or so that she then supplies to the local pet shop. Right or wrong? Wrong in my eyes, ok in many others.

These are the attitudes I believe you guys should be worrying about. Of course animal cruelty cases will always make people upset, but not all puppy farms involve cruelty and neglect and it's hard to argue the case against them when registered pure breed breeders have also been busted for neglect and cruelty.

I thought that the idea behind Oscar's Law was to get rid of animal sales from pet shops. How will protesting about a perfectly legal and even moral (in the eyes of some) puppy farm have any impact on these sales whatsoever? You just look like a bunch of animal rights crazies who don't want any dogs bred or owned ever.

:thumbsup:

[toy dog]

If all dogs have homes to go to, it will not prevent them from being unwanted

hence the dogs would still be in the system.

According to your overpopulation myth:

Less puppies/dogs available for sale,

would engender better dog owners that fulfill the responsibilities of owning a dog

so all dogs would have homes to go to and not end up in the pound system.

Under this cause and effect paradigm, puppy/dog availability is the 'cost driver' for the reasons dogs end up in pounds -

whereby the numbers of dogs in pounds represents the amount by which dog/puppy numbers exceed the demand for dogs/puppies:community,

and the scarce resource that is in 'undersupply', ie homes in the community

regards pound dogs, pedigree dogs; all dogs as perfect substitutes.

Hence 10 beagle puppies becoming available from a breeder in Ballan, takes away 10 potential homes for the 4 chi/JRT bitzer mixes, 2 bull arabs, 1 GSD and 3 doodles at the local pound.

ie there is a direct relationship between the number of puppies produced and the number of dogs in pounds.

You could actually formulate a mathematical model for your overpopulation myth, and use the algorithm to provide outputs estimating how many puppies should be available for sale (dependent variable), based on a function of the numbers of dogs in pounds (independent variable).

Maybe you could take this to VCAT next time?

lilli i appreciate your "analysis" on the whole issue, but i really believe you are over analysing just a tad. Can you find statistics for 1980-1985 when i began in the dog world? i'd be interested to see. 10 years is just too close for me considering intense breeding farms began probably about 18-20 years ago or started cropping up then.

Less puppies/dogs available for sale,

would engender better dog owners that fulfill the responsibilities of owning a dog

this is not what i said at all and not what i mean. my theory is, if dogs are going to be pumped out left right and centre from point of sale from the breeder end to make sure people are going to be suitable and then offer quality after sales service would equal less dogs being unwanted. not less dogs being bred. so to fill the quota of people wanting pets and the demand we should pump out pups in farms? because ped breeders are in the minority and cannot supply the demand? as i say we are a very disposable society today and people want things now without thought or planning for the future.