Oscars Law

[Steve]

Also - the wording is emotive. This isnt approval for 50 cages its approval for 50 kennels which comply with the mandatory code which was set up by animal welfare to tell breeders how they had to keep their breeding animals in Victoria.

forgot to add, these people we are talking about has a history of abuse of animals. that is why the council didn't want them, the animal people didn't want them and also the residents dont' want them either but they are all going to be lumped with these people. jsut because they are building a fancy new house mainly it is a big house they are building for themselves doesn't mean they can't abuse their animals that they will have in their care.

i say to all reg breeders make sure what you sell is desexed because these farmers will go to any lengths to get dogs to breed with. they have tried to trick us into getting our dogs for years. but we only sell our dogs desexed and upon hearing that they threw an absolute fit. so these days these farmers are getting mighty desperate to make their money.

If these people truly do have a history of abuse of animals why havent they been charged? Why are they still able to own ANY animals? If what you say is true then they wouldnt get past go let alone winning an appeal.

[Steve]

Also - the wording is emotive. This isnt approval for 50 cages its approval for 50 kennels which comply with the mandatory code which was set up by animal welfare to tell breeders how they had to keep their breeding animals in Victoria.

No breeder would have wanted to keep their dogs this way but once you own over 2 breeding dogs you are stuck with it. The minute any breeder wants to house their dogs differently the same people who are moaning about the "CAGES" come in and protest because they are not following the mandatory codes!

Many registered breeders and rescue have more than this number and if you are going to howl when ever anyone is complying and agreeing to follow what is in place supposedly for best practice why on earth would any one consider doing it by the book? May as well keep 25 in your bedrooms and save all of the expense of building kennels.

So...master breeders are condoning puppy farms them? Or just randomly breeding as long as its within guidelines? Sure they may be housed well but they are still breeding crap, selling crap and farming crap...ifs all for profit, not for bettering the breed, staying within standed and healthtesting..crap. jmho

Excuse me ? I am not condoning anything. In fact I have never said whether I think its either a good or a bad thing. I am saying we have rights and whether some people think that because some others decide they want to breed puppies and have a permit to have 50 dogs on their property is a sin or not doesnt make it O.K. to hound someone and bully them just because some think they can. If they are seen to be out in the open and under the watch of the people who have tried to stop them then at least we know where they are and what they are up to.

We want them to apply for permits and do it all according to codes and regs and not do what they want without anyone knowing where they are and what they are up to. How many breeders do you think would do the right thing and put their hands up for a DA to breed dogs if they think this will happen to them?

[Missymoo]

fair enough, but my point was these are NOT registered breeders..they are breed for profit, breed anything thats popular breeders...

[Steve]

fair enough, but my point was these are NOT registered breeders..they are breed for profit, breed anything thats popular breeders...

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along.

Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority.

[Missymoo]

ok whatever...so MDBA would support these so called "breeders"?

Edited August 11, 2011 by Missymoo

[Steve]

ok whatever...so MDBA would support these so called "breeders"?

Of course we dont support them - sheesh!

[Missymoo]

okkkk....

[toy dog]

it just sounds like to me that someone maybe in VCAT has a vested interest in these operations i was thinking that the other day, because time after time other councils didn't want farms in their shires and refuse to give the operators a licence so when it gets to VCAT they always over turn it - the farmers always get their licence in the end. it says that the shire in Ballan did not want any puppy farms and the residents don't want any puppy farms but still they are all forced to have this puppy farm.

my own shire where i currently live says there are no puppy farms in the region as well. but looking at that and reading it i thought i bet ya there are still farms here that are ofcourse not licenced so technically under the radar keeping it quiet.

yes it's called democracy.

You know where the citizens of a country agree to abide by a set of systems and regulations, buy their own land and then act accordingly.

Who cares what you want.

You want something different for the land in Ballan? -

Next time a big piece of land goes up for sale, buy it for yourself.

And be happy when you make your bank repayments that you prevented a puppy farm from being established.

so what are we saying here? are we sticking up for these big designer dog intensive puppy farms are we? what is your point? we seem to be confusing a hobby breeder who breeds for a purpose with a mongrel puppy farmer who breeds for their hip pocket cuts corners at every turn and treats the dogs like crap.

how they treat the dog in these farms and it has been found over and over again behind the scenes in these concentration camps for dogs i call them. Farmers just throw over the fence dry food and the ones that can get it get fed the ones that can't get the food don't eat. how else would these farmers feed over 1000 dogs on the premises and only having 5 staff to tend to all those dogs plus 2000 pups. and that is a farm that is supposed to be licenced and above code. it has also been found that these dogs are treated like cows so left to birth on their own the owner just goes to bed and leaves the poor dogs to it, so if puppy found stuck in birth canal dead and also mum dead who cares plenty more where that came from. and if they are found dead in the morning checks who cares. dogs aren't socialised or part of a family they are like caged chooks in cages. not to mention keep churning out thousands upon thousands of puppies in these conditions. and they are appauling conditions, no food or water, dirty bowls dirty trampoline beds that are minus the canvas coverings so the dog just sits on the concrete anyway, all dirty cages just poo everywhere, its all on youtube go and have a look at the raids that take place often because as i say the law fails these dogs and they are hidden away and forgotten about.

this is what is being fought for here. its not about the humans and what rights they have to do whatever they want on their own land, just say someone was abusing a child on their property an innocent child would you expect people to turn a blind eye to this cruelty too? its about treating the innocents humanely, those poor dogs are the innocents in all this. this is not how they should be treated. is it? and becuase its the farmers own land he can do what he wants to these beautiful animals its not our problem? its not our business its not anyone's business what they do to them but when a rescue group gets these dogs becsue the farmer has dumped them in appauling condition its still not anyone's problem then?

so how is this good and how do we liken these types of rotten people to us as a group? and what we stand for as a group? why should we all bear the brunt of what these types of people do to their dogs for pure profit only the welfare is sadly lacking, only breeding crap as missy moo says for their own selfish needs. thats the problem they (RPSCA and government) are trying to bung us all in the one, no drawing of lines anymore, we all apparently farm our dogs for profit, there's no breeding dogs for a purpose anymore its all about $$$.

Edited August 11, 2011 by toy dog

[toy dog]

it just sounds like to me that someone maybe in VCAT has a vested interest in these operations i was thinking that the other day, because time after time other councils didn't want farms in their shires and refuse to give the operators a licence so when it gets to VCAT they always over turn it - the farmers always get their licence in the end. it says that the shire in Ballan did not want any puppy farms and the residents don't want any puppy farms but still they are all forced to have this puppy farm.

my own shire where i currently live says there are no puppy farms in the region as well. but looking at that and reading it i thought i bet ya there are still farms here that are ofcourse not licenced so technically under the radar keeping it quiet.

yes it's called democracy.

You know where the citizens of a country agree to abide by a set of systems and regulations, buy their own land and then act accordingly.

Who cares what you want.

You want something different for the land in Ballan? -

Next time a big piece of land goes up for sale, buy it for yourself.

And be happy when you make your bank repayments that you prevented a puppy farm from being established.

according to your signature you don't even come from this country so do you know what is going on behind the scenes at all? and comments about me buying land and preventing puppy farms is uncalled for really, it is irrelevant.

[toy dog]

i believe that when you look at society and the amount of dogs needing homes in rescue organisations and shelters and the are overflowing why have these intense breeding farms of our dogs when there are plenty waiting for homes and are being put down because there is not enough but still these farms are churning out thousands upon thousands of dogs (2000 for one farm so multiply that by 70-80 in Victoria alone).

I believe if you look at population growth in the last decade

Vs

the number of dogs in shelters

you would see that your hysterical assertions

are false.

im sorry but i don't believe it is "hysterics" as you say, i am one of many many people who don't want these puppy farms and im talking about actual residents in that area who dont' want it coupled with a large proportion of the public, what im talking about is NOT REGISTERED BREEDERS let us be clear on this, it is about DESIGNER DOG CROSS BREEDS being bred for profit in highly intensive breeding farms. i believe this is nothing to do with a hobby registered breeder is it????????? or is it?????

Edited August 11, 2011 by toy dog

[toy dog]

fair enough, but my point was these are NOT registered breeders..they are breed for profit, breed anything thats popular breeders...

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along.

Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority.

the RSPCA is doing this turning it all into a circus based on ignorance of a program that was aired in the UK we all know what im talking about, thats what their rubbish is about on their website but ANKC answered what they are doing about it yadda yadda yadda one minute they say go to a registered ANKC breeder and really screen the breeder but on the other hand they are bagging us. AFAIK this is where it is all coming from and all because they want to stop puppy farms but say and it is true that just becuase a breeder is registered doesn't mean they aint a puppy farm. farmers come in many different disguises these days. but....thinking about all this for many years breeds have been in fashion for instance in the late 70's afgans were extremely popular and every second person bred these now you'd find it hard to buy one, you can still ofcourse but they aren't around in volumes like they used to be. so im thinking that maybe DD's might go out of fashion eventually might take a few years, the only reason why this has all escalated and we see a group for cross breed breeders is all because of the internet and also because they are there because of money.

yes we are in the minority because ignorance is bliss and it spreads like wildfire especially if you market it right like they have done through the media.

[SwaY]

A poll on How many litters a year....

[Steve]

okkkk....

The idea that the MDBA is supporting puppy mills and designer dogs is ridiculous but to actually make that accusation in writing on facebook ???? Pretty silly.

[Steve]

fair enough, but my point was these are NOT registered breeders..they are breed for profit, breed anything thats popular breeders...

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along.

Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority.

the RSPCA is doing this turning it all into a circus based on ignorance of a program that was aired in the UK we all know what im talking about, thats what their rubbish is about on their website but ANKC answered what they are doing about it yadda yadda yadda one minute they say go to a registered ANKC breeder and really screen the breeder but on the other hand they are bagging us. AFAIK this is where it is all coming from and all because they want to stop puppy farms but say and it is true that just becuase a breeder is registered doesn't mean they aint a puppy farm. farmers come in many different disguises these days. but....thinking about all this for many years breeds have been in fashion for instance in the late 70's afgans were extremely popular and every second person bred these now you'd find it hard to buy one, you can still ofcourse but they aren't around in volumes like they used to be. so im thinking that maybe DD's might go out of fashion eventually might take a few years, the only reason why this has all escalated and we see a group for cross breed breeders is all because of the internet and also because they are there because of money.

yes we are in the minority because ignorance is bliss and it spreads like wildfire especially if you market it right like they have done through the media.

But how does any of what you say make any difference.

What is it exactly that we should protest about - is it just these people,is it just that they are not registered breeders, is it that they have said they want to house up to 50 dogs, is it that it is in this location,is it because they are breeding for pets. If they wanted a permit for say 20 dogs would that be O.K? If they were registered would that be O.K.

What criteria would you have a breeder fit to be able to apply for a permit and not be targeted like this?

If you want me to understand what you want me to protest about without that impacting on all breeders and everyone who may apply for a permit you need to be more clear about what it is which you object to and how you would have the regs and laws etc made which would not affect someone who is registered and who does the right thing according to what we think who needs to apply for a permit.

[toy dog]

i think it is blatantly clear what people are protesting about when it comes to these bloody farms. i think it creates awareness people then begin to look up on the internet why not and the word spreads. seen this first hand with a few people which is good. which is what we want. to foil their sales in these farms and it has happened that way too.

i've written a whole paragraph on the why we shouldn't have puppy farms in our society today licenced or not they are all the same, same goals. and the feeling is not just mine alone there are thousands more people just like me.

i just find it disheartening that a few of you have made it very clear and are suggesting that we turn a blind eye to "designer dog" intensive dog farms not registered hobby breeders because we will be next on the hit list that is ridiculous. to fight to keep them open and not say a thing against is only coupling us all with these thugs and they are thugs too. read prisoner for profit website and you will know what these farmers get up to. i know i've had experience with a few that are mentioned and they are not nice people, if you can do that to an animal all for the sake of your own selfish needs, not nice people in my books.

as i said, ANKC and state controlling body in Vic went to the govt and asked to be exempt from being included in domestic animal businesses so it was said that a registered hobby breeder can have 10 fertile bitches and does not state how many dogs providing authority and appropriate permits are granted within the shire/council the breeder lives in. just because reg with ANKC doesn't mean we are not above the law. having a permit means council have every right to inspect etc. etc. ours hasn't yet in 26 years. but code of ethics reading that and then reading the code of conduct required for a domestic business is slightly similar but they reccognise a hobby breeder and having 10 fertile bitches etc. so no need to set a criteria already been done.

i mean i know of some councils with people applying for permits for their dogs have to have outside kennels a certain way from the neighbouring fence and comply with other conditions too to get a permit so we aren't all above the law simply because we are ANKC reg but in the public eye and these farmers are saying we don't follow any law at all to try and sway the public that they are better because they are licenced.

my point is just because these farms are licenced doesn't mean they are following all the code in place a good many of them don't because not enough resources to check each and every licenced puppy farm so the public and animal groups have to take it into their own hands by raiding. and quite recently one such farm was and they were quoting to the media that they were a top kennel and there was no need to be raided yet there is proof this is not true at all. they try and paint a fluffy picture to the public and for years they've been doing this.

Edited August 11, 2011 by toy dog

[Kiara&Heidi]

lilli - WHY ARE YOU ON THIS FORUM? It is clear that you are not concerned with the welfare of dogs

Is it that you are just trying to upset everyone?

[Steve]

i think it is blatantly clear what people are protesting about when it comes to these bloody farms. i think it creates awareness people then begin to look up on the internet why not and the word spreads. seen this first hand with a few people which is good. which is what we want. to foil their sales in these farms and it has happened that way too.

i've written a whole paragraph on the why we shouldn't have puppy farms in our society today licenced or not they are all the same, same goals. and the feeling is not just mine alone there are thousands more people just like me.

i just find it disheartening that a few of you have made it very clear and are suggesting that we turn a blind eye to "designer dog" intensive dog farms not registered hobby breeders because we will be next on the hit list that is ridiculous. to fight to keep them open and not say a thing against is only coupling us all with these thugs and they are thugs too. read prisoner for profit website and you will know what these farmers get up to. i know i've had experience with a few that are mentioned and they are not nice people, if you can do that to an animal all for the sake of your own selfish needs, not nice people in my books.

as i said, ANKC and state controlling body in Vic went to the govt and asked to be exempt from being included in domestic animal businesses so it was said that a registered hobby breeder can have 10 fertile bitches and does not state how many dogs providing authority and appropriate permits are granted within the shire/council the breeder lives in. just because reg with ANKC doesn't mean we are not above the law. having a permit means council have every right to inspect etc. etc. but code of ethics reading that and then reading the code of conduct require for a domestic business is slightly similar but they reccognise a hobby breeder having 10 fertile bitches etc. so no need to set a criteria already been done.

And I find it disheartening that you could feel that anyone here is suggesting we turn a blind eye to it. I simply dont agree with THIS TACTIC. Surely to god we can discuss what we think is a good way to fight dogs being abused without having to constantly defend ourselves and be accused of bloody supporting them and turning a blind eye when we dont think one action is the best way to do that.

[Steve]

i think it is blatantly clear what people are protesting about when it comes to these bloody farms. i think it creates awareness people then begin to look up on the internet why not and the word spreads. seen this first hand with a few people which is good. which is what we want. to foil their sales in these farms and it has happened that way too.

i've written a whole paragraph on the why we shouldn't have puppy farms in our society today licenced or not they are all the same, same goals. and the feeling is not just mine alone there are thousands more people just like me.

i just find it disheartening that a few of you have made it very clear and are suggesting that we turn a blind eye to "designer dog" intensive dog farms not registered hobby breeders because we will be next on the hit list that is ridiculous. to fight to keep them open and not say a thing against is only coupling us all with these thugs and they are thugs too. read prisoner for profit website and you will know what these farmers get up to. i know i've had experience with a few that are mentioned and they are not nice people, if you can do that to an animal all for the sake of your own selfish needs, not nice people in my books.

as i said, ANKC and state controlling body in Vic went to the govt and asked to be exempt from being included in domestic animal businesses so it was said that a registered hobby breeder can have 10 fertile bitches and does not state how many dogs providing authority and appropriate permits are granted within the shire/council the breeder lives in. just because reg with ANKC doesn't mean we are not above the law. having a permit means council have every right to inspect etc. etc. ours hasn't yet in 26 years. but code of ethics reading that and then reading the code of conduct required for a domestic business is slightly similar but they reccognise a hobby breeder and having 10 fertile bitches etc. so no need to set a criteria already been done.

i mean i know of some councils with people applying for permits for their dogs have to have outside kennels a certain way from the neighbouring fence and comply with other conditions too to get a permit so we aren't all above the law simply because we are ANKC reg but in the public eye and these farmers are saying we don't follow any law at all to try and sway the public that they are better because they are licenced.

my point is just because these farms are licenced doesn't mean they are following all the code in place a good many of them don't because not enough resources to check each and every licenced puppy farm so the public and animal groups have to take it into their own hands by raiding. and quite recently one such farm was and they were quoting to the media that they were a top kennel and there was no need to be raided yet there is proof this is not true at all. they try and paint a fluffy picture to the public and for years they've been doing this.

Still none of this makes any difference. You want only registered breeders to breed dogs - so do I - but there are a hell of a lot of people who also want people to breed designer dogs. There are also lots of people who dont want anyone to breed any dogs whO see the bigger picture much more clearly than many of us do.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Steve

[toy dog]

arielle, this subject has come up again and again and it always makes me feel i've lost faith in the dog world when you get told that we should not be protesting about these mongrel puppy farms and more so because i am a registered breeder and it is a no-no . if that is regarded as me being hysterical or others being hystercial then shoot me .

for me there is no difference between a pedigree dog over a cross if they are in need and need to be rescued then they are all dogs at the end of the day.

i feel sorry for the poor buggers stuck in puppy farms being bred every season no health checks and suffer from genetic problems simply because their human doesn't bother to do any research, then discarded like rubbish when they cannot breed anymore. and me and my friends will fight to the very end until we see puppy farms and dogs being housed in their hundreds being bred for profit, outlawed. most of the time large scale puppy farms house dogs of several different breeds bred together but not always. the goal is the same breed as many dogs as they can for the mighty dollar cut corners no thought for the dogs in question. this is cruelty to me and always will be.

[Alyosha]

I think there is an overlooked element in this VCAT puppy farm case. The VCAT has made the decision based on legal principles. That's what they have to do. The emotion side can't apply. Whether we believe it should or not is irrelevant. I feel for the Council in this case, it will be a regulatory nightmare for them. But they will need to deal with it through correct channels, not necessarily emotive ones.

That aside, doesn't Oscar's Law want to ban the sale of puppies online?? So how does it get promoted on this website, which promotes purebred dogs, and provides a service for advertising those dogs online?? I have pups advertised online at the moment? Does that make me an evil, commercial, profit driven puppy farmer???

I like the basic ideas behind things like Oscar's Law. But I think many of us have learned over time that it's not the basic idea that is concerning, but the other less promoted agendas involved in these things that sneak in under the radar.

PETA is a prime example. "Yay - let's promote anti cruelty etc etc". Then comes the less obvious agendas of anti-companion animals... and worse...

I am against commercial puppy farms. I have been in some really bad ones... been there, seen it, smelled it. Certainly don't support it. But I have said before and will say again - additional regulations are only as good as the regulatory enforcement infrastructure supporting them. Otherwise they only serve to regulate the honest people, who are not in the wrong to start with.

It's all well and good "insisting" that the Govt regulates the industry, runs education campaigns etc etc. Where does the money come from to do it? Economies are fragile enough at the moment...

EFS

Edited August 11, 2011 by Alyosha