Burdy Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I know this subject has probably been covered many times before, I did a search but didn't really turn up any answers to my questions.. I'll try the short version.. As some may remember I lost an entire litter earlier this year and now I have pups on the ground to the same bitch. She has problems retaining progesterone and suffered pre-eclampsia or some kind of auto-immune problem where she reject placentas so after vigilant testing and supplementing through out her pregnancy she had 5 puppies via c-section, 2 were deceased and out of the 3 remaining boys one was only just revived and was nick named Squirt. The 2 deceased placentas were almost completely broken down and Squirts was as well. The other 2 pups were above average weight, placentas intact and in a different horn. On day 2 Mina decided that the pups were certainly not hers and were infact fair game, she grabbed hold of Squirt and managed a couple of puncture wounds before I could get him out of her mouth. Off to the vets on anti-biotics and put on tube feed as he had lost weight. Tubing was not working for him so I was feeding him by syringe as well as bottle feeding the other 2 as I have come so far as to get pups on the ground from her I was not taking any chances. Day 3 he seemed to be ok and was drinking well from the syringe and I had a good monitor of his intake. Day 4 he crawled to the corner and cried - fading. I already had him on glucose and added yakult, egg yolk and extra water, with in a couple of feeds he had stopped crying and more alert and by day 4 he was feeding very well from the bottle with me only having to top him up a few ml. We are now at day 8 and he is feeding extremely well via the bottle and is starting to gain a bit of weight (all be it slowly, he is still only just over his birth weight at this stage). So I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for suppliments now he is alot stronger, to get him a bit more up to speed? And I would like to know peoples experiences with pups that have survived either fps or failure to thrive, did they eventually grow and catch up or remain somewhat weaker/smaller? Where there any residual problems as an adolecent or adult? Did they end up relatively normal? What was the age of pup when it started to fade and/or got through it? How old is too old for a pup to still be at birth weight before it can catch up? Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 The first experience I had in fading puppies was actually an extensive article written many years ago by a Bulldog breeder whose bitch had an e coli present(staph I think it was, but stand corrected if I am wrong) The breeder wrote an article and documented her heartbreak but then also success in a future mating. I do have an extensive article in one of my Bulldog books on FPS. The article is very in depth and long and I dont think I can successfully photocopy it and put it up here. Let alone type it all out. Sorry. But I probably can photocopy it and snail mail it to you if you like for future reference. In short the article is about Lactobacillus Acidophilus. Maybe someone with intense typing skills can reformat it into a pdf file. Have you tried the boiled liver receipe for the bubs?? Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisart Dobes Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I know this subject has probably been covered many times before, I did a search but didn't really turn up any answers to my questions.. I'll try the short version.. As some may remember I lost an entire litter earlier this year and now I have pups on the ground to the same bitch. She has problems retaining progesterone and suffered pre-eclampsia or some kind of auto-immune problem where she reject placentas so after vigilant testing and supplementing through out her pregnancy she had 5 puppies via c-section, 2 were deceased and out of the 3 remaining boys one was only just revived and was nick named Squirt. The 2 deceased placentas were almost completely broken down and Squirts was as well. The other 2 pups were above average weight, placentas intact and in a different horn. On day 2 Mina decided that the pups were certainly not hers and were infact fair game, she grabbed hold of Squirt and managed a couple of puncture wounds before I could get him out of her mouth. Off to the vets on anti-biotics and put on tube feed as he had lost weight. Tubing was not working for him so I was feeding him by syringe as well as bottle feeding the other 2 as I have come so far as to get pups on the ground from her I was not taking any chances. Day 3 he seemed to be ok and was drinking well from the syringe and I had a good monitor of his intake. Day 4 he crawled to the corner and cried - fading. I already had him on glucose and added yakult, egg yolk and extra water, with in a couple of feeds he had stopped crying and more alert and by day 4 he was feeding very well from the bottle with me only having to top him up a few ml. We are now at day 8 and he is feeding extremely well via the bottle and is starting to gain a bit of weight (all be it slowly, he is still only just over his birth weight at this stage). So I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for suppliments now he is alot stronger, to get him a bit more up to speed? And I would like to know peoples experiences with pups that have survived either fps or failure to thrive, did they eventually grow and catch up or remain somewhat weaker/smaller? Where there any residual problems as an adolecent or adult? Did they end up relatively normal? What was the age of pup when it started to fade and/or got through it? How old is too old for a pup to still be at birth weight before it can catch up? Thanks in advance Firstly, very sorry about your drama's. It is very stressful to have all of this going on when you want to just enjoy it all. Your comment I bolded came quickly to my attention - bitches know instinctively if there is something wrong with a puppy. I can only answer from my own experience and my own breed. But if I had a bitch that had that trouble whelping/conceiving/carrying a litter I wouldn't breed her. I have had one puppy that the bitch kept pushing away and she was really rough with him etc etc so I did the 'right thing' and tube fed him to keep his weight up and keep him going. We lost him day 10. That was my first litter on my own (parents bred but not the same) and I learnt the hard way not to do that again. Though even he had doubled his birth weight by day 7 - I would expect all our puppies to do that at least (not sure if it is the same in all breeds - say giant or toys though). This puppies placenta was the only one that didn't smell right as well I didn't let my girl eat that one. It is hard to just let them survive on their own but you will be better off in the long run if you do. But if you decide to fight hard for him below is a fantastic rehydration mix that works better than anything else I have ever seen (I didn't have this at the time of the puppy above). REHYDRATION MIX 600ML BOILED WATER 2 TBS GLUCODIN ½ TSP BICARB ½ TSP SALT 5ML PER 500GM BODY WEIGHT EVERY HOUR FOR 24 HOURS THEN AS NEEDED (I do every hour for 24 then every 3 hours for 24 then when you think is needed) They don't need anything else apart from mums milk if you can get that happening. Link below for Pre-breeding exam for a bitch - I have been doing this with our girls for the past 5 years since learning more about Fading Puppies and how it can be prevented. The health of your bitch is vital to the survival of the puppies - obviously - this is why I place such importance on the tests listed - my vet thinks I go overboard sometimes though . Still would rather do everything I can to prevent issues arising. http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/vpbxm1.html I spoke to a friend recently who had a litter with several puppies who struggled to survive - they supplemented them and kept them going, all went to homes at 8 weeks. Job done you think but they have one with severe skin issues (auto-immune) and one with severe kidney issues and one is doing ok so far - these puppies are around 14 months from memory. Its a hard hobby we choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Bisart E Coli present in the bitch while carrying a litter can lead to FPS. By controlling this there should not be any reason why a bitch should not be bred from. Testing for staph is done. Administering appropriate treatment is carried out and monitoring of puppies is required. We have the advanced science out there. How can someone say But if I had a bitch that had that trouble whelping/conceiving/carrying a litter I wouldn't breed her because until it happens you dont know. And if it does happen then why wouldnt you find out what is happening and how it can be treated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Has anyone much experience with bitches rejecting pups in that first few days that may be due to the pain caused by uterine contractions whilst feeding? I wonder because it's quite unpleasantly painful for many humans, and I have watched bitches show obvious signs of discomfort during early feeding. Could it be possible that some bitches quickly learn to associate feeding pups with bad pain? It seems a very obvious form of aversion training really. Something that may trigger an aggressive reaction rather than there being something wrong with the pup? I've heard some people use aspirin for bitches during that period as well. For struggling babies I like feeding Impact Colostrum Supplement from Wombaroo. And this most recent time when we had no milk I supplemented (tube feeding) with Divetelact at the increased dilution rate - 1 scoop to 60ml - with generous Impact in it, also vitamin C powder - Sodium Ascorbate. Mine had started getting quiet but only the smallest 2 had got quite weak, they were recovered within 24hrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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