Following On From Huski's Prong Collar Thread

[GeckoTree]

I DON'T support a prong collar ban AND I have NOT tried a prong collar on myself

GT

[Teebs]

my vote has been fixed

[KitKat]

I don't support the ban, and i have tried the prong collar on myself. I don't advocate the prong collar for every dog - but as with all things it's not the training tool that is usually the problem but how the person at the other end of the lead uses it.

[Remarkabull]

I don't support the ban and I have not tried the collar on myself, however I do have one so maybe I'll give it a go tomorrow. I have used it on my Dobe many times and he still comes running to me to go for a walk when it is brought out for use and he certainly doesn't shut down or cower when I give it a pop while out walking.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Why would you use one and not just teach a dog to walk properly on a normal collar? Genuine question

[Tilly]

Why would you use one and not just teach a dog to walk properly on a normal collar? Genuine question

I have a dog that walks beautifully on a lead about 95% of the time ... but then at some point his high prey drive kicks in and he gets over excited and completely forgets there is anyone on the end of his leash and without the prong I would be on my ass or dragged across the road in seconds. One slight pop on the prong and its like ... oh right - I am on a lead so I can't run across and play with that person/dog/cat etc.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Tilly

[huski]

Why would you use one and not just teach a dog to walk properly on a normal collar? Genuine question

I think people would like to teach their dog to walk on loose leash on a 'normal' (i.e. flat) collar, and if you train your puppy not to pull on the leash from day one this is achievable. However:

- Most pet owners aren't aware that they even NEED to teach LLW, never mind knowing how to do it

- This often results in a puppy that learns to pull on the leash and then grows bigger and stronger and gets to a point where it's owners are unable to control it

- If the dog is lucky, the behaviour gets so bad that the owners seek help from a professional but by this point, pulling on the leash has been ingrained for so long (often years) that the owners need some leverage to help control the dog so learning can take place. This is when we bring in corrective tools like martingales or prong collars depending on the dog and the skill of the owner.

The other thing to keep in mind is that most reputable trainers would probably be capable of training LLW to the majority of dogs they see on a flat collar but what they are capable of doing is irrelevant - they need to consider the skill and needs of their clients and the simple fact is that they need to be able to show the owner they can get results quickly in the consult time they have or the owner is likely to give up.

[Erny]

Need to also add to Huski's post (above) that there are times when circumstances and situations change during the lifetime of the dog.

There could be instances where the well-LLW-trained dog has suffered a negative experience (hypothetical eg. from o/dogs) and the owner can no longer depend on the initial LLW training over-riding the dog's instincts/drives to react rather than to observe the previous "don't pull on lead" education it received. (We talk about training methods, thresholds and so on being observed for the purposes of remedial training - I agree that these are important aspects to be observed and utilised. But matters in life are not guaranteed and we are not always nor even often able to, in a practical sense, be able to be in control of the environment we find ourselves in, so it goes without saying that people need something that will aid not only in the assistance of training/rehabilitation, but that will also aid in providing a restraint that will make it easier for the dog handler to successfully retain and control the dog until at least distance and calm can be returned and rehabilitation training resumed.)

In addition to or even separate to the above, the owner may have suffered an incident or contracted an unexpected disease which resulted in the owner needing something additional to add assurance to reliable restraint being able to be maintained should an expected or indeed unexpected situation require it.

There are many who would sing out "head-collar" and/or "correctional harness" but these tools are not always necessarily in the strongest interests of the animal's welfare nor necessarily in the best interests of the dog's learning (both of which really go hand in hand). This therefore simply further backs up why it is silly that any one person, any one trainer and/or behaviourist, any one supposed "animal welfare" organisation, or any one Government or any one Government advisory department should agree to any one training tool being totally banned from use.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Erny

[Mason_Gibbs]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

[huski]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

Not to want to take the thread too OT, but the problem with that argument is that:

- Some dogs find head collars more aversive to wear than prong collars, there is nothing to prove or even suggest that head collars are a less aversive tool than other correctional collars like prongs

- There is no one size fits all tool that is suitable for all dogs, owners and circumstances - head collars won't be the most suitable tool nor will work on every dog and vice versa with prong collars

[Tilly]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

A halti would work fine for some dogs ... but when my boy had one on what he does is turns towards me and pulls backwards and shakes his head. A halti caused massive welts across his nose when he did this and then of course he slips out of the halti - so it is not effective for him.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Tilly

[Erny]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

That's why it has been so easily accepted and adopted. It "appears" quite benign. It is only, after all, webbing. Nice. Soft.

It takes a bit of thought by the user to actually realise what aversive is applied by the head collar for its successful use. Pressure (quite a lot, for some dogs who resist) by a strap across the bridge of the dog's nose. A very sensitive, nerve rich and easily pained area.

Also, of course, there is the potential for sharp (albeit unintended, if the owner understands proper use) jerks on the head collar. This might be something unavoidable - perhaps the dog leaped out or forward unexpectedly. The head collar controls the direction of the head. The momentum of the dog's body might work in opposition and this is where there is very strong potential for neck vertibrae damage. I don't know that there is any direct evidence of neck vertibrae damage being caused by a head collar. I believe not. But there is much anecdotal evidence.* Damage to the neck, be it vertibrae, muscle or tendon, doesn't always show up immediately, so it can be difficult to directly associate the damage having been caused by the head-collar.

There is also the damage that can be caused by surface abrasion and to dogs' eyes. And rest assured, there are dogs around that plain and simple fact - are completely unable to have a head collar of any brand fitted to it.

There can be and is a place for head-collars. They aren't my most favourite of training tools, but that's my personal choice. I will use a head-collar on a dog if I believe it is the best tool for the dog I'm working with. But I would also suggest that head-collars should only be used with the restriction of people having sought supervision and training in the proper fitting and use of the head collar.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Erny

[Mason_Gibbs]

What damage do prong collars do if used in the wrong hands ( genuine question i honestly know nothing about them as my dog walks on a normal collar)?

[huski]

What damage do prong collars do if used in the wrong hands ( genuine question i honestly know nothing about them as my dog walks on a normal collar)?

This document may answer some of your questions

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=256463711047920

[fuzzy82]

I support the ban, and haven't tried it on myself. I have seen it used by an experienced trainer though. I would like to try it on myself, not just wearing it, but being given a proper correction with one. I do suspect that my neck is different from a dog's though, and how dogs experience it would also vary between dogs.

[sandgrubber]

I don't think putting it on your leg is a logical way to be testing a prong collar. It goes around the dog's neck, not his leg. It's like punching yourself in the leg vs punching yourself in the neck, doesn't seem like a fair comparison to me? Anyways, just my thought.

Disagree. My dogs regularly play bite one another around the neck . . . they do it hard . . . it would break my skin if they did it to me. Because the neck is so up front in fights and so inclined to take hits in hunting, dogs generally have tough skin and often have thick coats around the neck. I'd say thigh with chaps would be a realistic test for dogs with good neck padding, say, a husky or Labrador. Not that chaps are needed to convince most people that the horrid looking thing is actually less painful than a choker chain.

I used a prong on one of my girls, who had a bad habit of pulling on the lead. No pressure required. The pulling stopped immediately, but she showed no sign of shock or pain, and was all waggy the next time walkie time came around and the prong collar was pulled out. And after a few walks with the prong collar she gave up pulling for good. I'm not saying the thing is a miracle cure for all dogs or that it won't be misused. But in some cases it's a fantastic training tool.

Edited August 7, 2011 by sandgrubber

[sas]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

I can comment on this from personal experience.

I had a Dane Foster turn up that had been on a Halter as she would get over stimulated and lunge at things that excited her.......she was at the Chiro every week and on pain killers because of the damage that was caused by her being on a halter +/- incorrect handling of the Halter.

If she were on a prong it would have been a different story, I ended up training her on a check chain because of the public dismay towards the prong I couldn't have re-homed her trained on one, which was a shame.

I have seen diffifult to manage Danes on Halters that make me cringle.

Those who actually understand the use of Prongs that are used correctly understand they are a more gentle tool than checking a dog on a check chain, I personaly have a dog that ends up with a red neck and brusing from a check chain and that's not from constant checking, yet on a prong there are no skin irritations or bruising (for us) because it is a more gentle tool because you don't have to apply hard corrections etc.

I wonder what people feel about the Neck Tech collars vs the Prong?

Edited August 7, 2011 by MEH

[sas]

I support the ban, and haven't tried it on myself. I have seen it used by an experienced trainer though. I would like to try it on myself, not just wearing it, but being given a proper correction with one. I do suspect that my neck is different from a dog's though, and how dogs experience it would also vary between dogs.

What do you deem as a 'proper' correction. If you understood the Prong collar you would know you don't give hard corrections on them, you can walk a dog with your little finger.

[Kavik]

IMO ( and im no expert) if i had an issue i would rather use a halti than a prong it seems less severe to me.

How severe it appears to you may be different to how severe it appears to the dog. What if the dog found the halti more aversive?

[dee lee]

Why would you use one and not just teach a dog to walk properly on a normal collar? Genuine question

Most people don't go straight to using a prong.

In my situation, I had a dog who was very strong & reactive & I was unable to walk on a flat collar despite over a year of attempting to train her to loose lead walk. It wasn't my bad training, she, like many bull breeds (she was a staffy x) had a very "tough" neck.

She also was prone to very fast lungeing in random directions if she spied a "threat", so using a halti would have been a dangerous thing for her neck.

Despite me not having the nerve for it, the prong worked extremely well while I used it.

It works on self correction- the dog dislikes the sensation & you can actually see their brains working it out- they learn to avoid the correction with minimal use of it.

I am just too much of a softy though. I couldn't do it properly & so it wasn't a tool I'd use again.

I also now have a softer temperament breed that doesn't require one.

But I did try it on myself & I don't support a ban.