Help Stop The Hysteria

[fuzzy82]

Great work on creating the page Bec and K9 Pro team . I believe it is about educating people on the correct use of Prong and other training collars. Education is the key. It's sad that the people who want to ban these collars seem to believe that those of us who are in support of them are 'uneducated' or 'cruel/ don't love our dogs' etc. I know several people who use a prong and not one of them is cruel (and they all love their dogs too ).

The thing is, even trainers don't use them correctly. If they were used as a last resort to control large, aggressive dogs long enough to train them, I would not have a problem with them. But, I have seen experienced trainers use them on dogs that only had slightly bad manners. And by bad manners I mean it was a bit fidgety while it was supposed to be sitting calmly, and it was being manhandled with a prong collar. A problem that would have been quickly and easily fixed using reward based methods, and yet a prong collar was used.

So education on correct use would be good, but I wouldn't trust trainers to give it.

[huski]

Fuzzy, I've seen "trainers" misuse a range of tools. IMO it's not a tool specific issue.

[huski]

;) I have absolutely no problem understanding every word in the linked document, I am sure you can read it however the comprehension might leave a few sections up in the air. ;)

The ban of prong collar use on dogs have been in place in Sweden for a very long time - decades.

The entire Sweden - not just one province/state/area/landskap of the country.

So - Victoria, Australia is not the only place with a ban of prong collar use on dogs.

Ok, thanks for the info. I still can't find any other information that talks about the law banning prong collars in Sweden, so if you can find something in English that would be great!

Although, you did say prongs were banned in several countries. So far, Sweden seems to be the only one...?

[fuzzy82]

;)

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

Victoria is not the only place on earth with prong collar bans.

Here is a link - not in English

http://www.djurskyddet.se/media/17084/hundhalsband.pdf

Google translation can be great, often hilarious and frequently "up the wall" .

Lots of back packers in Qld who can assist with translation I am sure.

Come on, I can't read that and from the sounds of it neither can you.

You said above there are entire countries that have banned prong collars, if that's true, surely it would not be difficult to provide a list of which countries have done so.

;) I have absolutely no problem understanding every word in the linked document, I am sure you can read it however the comprehension might leave a few sections up in the air. ;)

The ban of prong collar use on dogs have been in place in Sweden for a very long time - decades.

The entire Sweden - not just one province/state/area/landskap of the country.

So - Victoria, Australia is not the only place with a ban of prong collar use on dogs.

Norway has also banned prong collars, as well as e-collars.

[huski]

Norway has also banned prong collars, as well as e-collars.

Not in my understanding - from what I've read, the use of the tools are restricted not completely illegal.

[huski]

Anyway...

Whether or not prongs are banned elsewhere is beside the point. The point is that how can we, in Australia, allow our government to ban the use of a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing pain or harm? The arguments in favour of banning it largely revolve around the tool supposedly being used to abuse dogs yet banning the tool will not stop people from abusing their dogs and assuming it will is quite ridiculous.

[kiesha09]

I believe that there are alternatives that can be used instead of a prong collar but more importantly force in general. If people can train all types of animals to do all sorts of jobs/tricks etc not relying on a collar at all then I'm sure we can do it with dogs.

I believe that those who have not been successful using a positive approach proably have a flawed application of the method rather than the method itself being flawed. There have been alot of aggressive dogs with serious behavioural issues rehabilitated using positive reinforcement methods.

Possibilities in Dog Training

I'm not going to get into an argument with all of you who are pro-prong collars as this is just my oppinion but I did want to post the article as food for thought.

Edited August 5, 2011 by kiesha09

[huski]

Kiesha, I don't think anyone here has any issue with PR. I very rarely if ever use physical corrections in training but I can recognize times where tools like prongs are useful to give desperate owners leverage so that they can apply behaviour modification. IMO once a bad behaviour has become ingrained it's very difficult to stop it 100% using only positive reinforcement. There is no doubt PR is great for teaching new behaviours but it's not always the best way (to use strictly PR only) when addressing ingrained and serious behaviourial problems.

People like Shell saw THREE dIfferent PR trainers and yet they still all told her PTS was the only options. What are the chances all three trainers had 'flawed application' of the method (Shell's success with zero proves she is a skilled handler capable of following instruction) rather it being a case of those methods simply were not suitable for the dog?

Anyway, this is a point we addressed in the article we posted on FB today.

ETA: I like SG but even she will tell you, she is not a behaviourist and doesn't work with dogs that have serious behaviourial problems. I don't believe in using force or intimidation methods in training dogs and I feel it's a common misconception that tools like e-collars and prongs are used that way.

Edited August 5, 2011 by huski

[fuzzy82]

Norway has also banned prong collars, as well as e-collars.

Not in my understanding - from what I've read, the use of the tools are restricted not completely illegal.

Prong collars are legal to sell and buy, but not to use. Go figure. E-collars are allowed to be used by a few people with specialised training for training specific types of hunting dogs. So as good as banned.

[Kavik]

It is a very interesting article - read it when it appeared on facebook link. And I agree about the access to reinforcement/punishment idea. The issue I see is where the dog already has such a big problem and doesn't have the foundation work to use Susan's approach. I love Susan's approach and went to her seminar last year. In order for her to train without corrections, she is very good at managing her interactions with her dogs and their access to reinforcement, with very clear criteria. She also has dogs with good drive. This is great! but not easy for many(most I would say) people to do. Many people with family and other commitments would not be able to (or even want to) go to the lengths that she does in her training.

Also, prong collars and positive reinforcement do not have to be mutually exclusive - they just give you good control eg if you are small and have a large dog, so if the dog lunges or pulls you won't be pulled over. You can still use toys, treats, praise. Same as any other collar.

[huski]

Prong collars are legal to sell and buy, but not to use. Go figure. E-collars are allowed to be used by a few people with specialised training for training specific types of hunting dogs. So as good as banned.

The information I found stated that they are banned in official competition not for general use.

[huski]

Also, prong collars and positive reinforcement do not have to be mutually exclusive - they just give you good control eg if you are small and have a large dog, so if the dog lunges or pulls you won't be pulled over. You can still use toys, treats, praise. Same as any other collar.

I think this is important to emphasise! It always strikes me as a bit odd that people seem to think it's black and white, i.e. people who use prongs don't also use PR.

[Bullyisious]

Joined your facebook Group

[HollyE]

huski - Thank you, I feel much more up to date now.

[kiesha09]

It is a very interesting article - read it when it appeared on facebook link. And I agree about the access to reinforcement/punishment idea. The issue I see is where the dog already has such a big problem and doesn't have the foundation work to use Susan's approach. I love Susan's approach and went to her seminar last year. In order for her to train without corrections, she is very good at managing her interactions with her dogs and their access to reinforcement, with very clear criteria. She also has dogs with good drive. This is great! but not easy for many(most I would say) people to do. Many people with family and other commitments would not be able to (or even want to) go to the lengths that she does in her training.

Also, prong collars and positive reinforcement do not have to be mutually exclusive - they just give you good control eg if you are small and have a large dog, so if the dog lunges or pulls you won't be pulled over. You can still use toys, treats, praise. Same as any other collar.

Susan builds the drive in her dogs, it is not necessarily something ingrained in them from birth.

I have a small dog however, she was very reactive and onlead had become quite aggressive to other dogs. Yes it wasn't the worst agression I have seen but that was due to her size not her intent. Through Susan's 5 minute recall program (where I did 10 minutes a day) I have solved this problem and created a massive amount of drive in my very low drive dog. I'm not trying to sell her program here btw I just want to reiterate that you can fix these ingrained behavioural problems using these methods and you don't have to go to that much trouble to do it.

This same dog had barked at the possums every night for the last 3 years...another very ingrained behaviour that was completely self reinforcing (in fact today it is still classified as her number 1 reward). This has also been stopped and I have total control over it.

So IMO and experience you can most definately fix ingrained problem behaviours.

[corvus]

I educated my vets on the good, the bad and the ugly truths and fictions of "ALL" types of collars and training equipment and training methods.

Well, that's a relief. Did you tell them collars cause cancer? The internets says so, so it must be true.

Ahh that's why you shouldn't believe everything you read you on the internet or in books which outdate quickly. People should actually step out into the real world and see what it's really like instead of hiding behind computer desks and under mountains of usless bits of paper that make them feel important.

Uh huh. Those learning theory books, they outdate so fast. But who would know when they are busy out there in the real world training dogs?

[fuzzy82]

Prong collars are legal to sell and buy, but not to use. Go figure. E-collars are allowed to be used by a few people with specialised training for training specific types of hunting dogs. So as good as banned.

The information I found stated that they are banned in official competition not for general use.

The info you found is wrong. I am Norwegian, I know the rules.

[megan_]

You're lucky Kiesha. Shell saw three PP behaviourists (qualified ones), they all said that PP couldn't help this dog and should PTS. What should she have done?

No one is saying you can't fix ingrained issues, and Shell used a lot of positive rewards from her description, but she also used a prong collar for a short period of time.

Were her behaviourists incompetent, including the Delta qualified one?

ETA: I very rarely (maybe once a year) use a correction on my dogs. That said, I'm not going to want them made illegal simply because they don't suit my sensibilities.

Sandgrubber had it right when she said that one of the biggest forms of abuse in this countries is social neglect. I remember reading a survey that said something like 50% of Australian's don't regularly exercise their dogs - now that is criminal.

Edited August 5, 2011 by megan_

[huski]

Susan builds the drive in her dogs, it is not necessarily something ingrained in them from birth.

Not to go completely OT, but IMO, the drive has to be there in some form for you to build on it. There is no questionining the fact SG has high drive dogs. By definition drive is a natural instinctive behaviour. Of course it's there at birth.

I have a small dog however, she was very reactive and onlead had become quite aggressive to other dogs. Yes it wasn't the worst agression I have seen but that was due to her size not her intent. Through Susan's 5 minute recall program (where I did 10 minutes a day) I have solved this problem and created a massive amount of drive in my very low drive dog. I'm not trying to sell her program here btw I just want to reiterate that you can fix these ingrained behavioural problems using these methods and you don't have to go to that much trouble to do it.

This same dog had barked at the possums every night for the last 3 years...another very ingrained behaviour that was completely self reinforcing (in fact today it is still classified as her number 1 reward). This has also been stopped and I have total control over it.

So IMO and experience you can most definately fix ingrained problem behaviours.

I don't doubt that you can fix issues with using drive, I've done this myself with my dog, but that's not always the best option for ALL dogs and handlers nor the option that will produce the best results for their situation.

If you have an inexperienced 55kg female handler a 65kg highly aggressive dog, whose next stop is to be PTS because it is simply out of control, the owner needs a way to get that dog under control and fast. No training is going to take place before that happens. Tools like prong collars can give an owner leverage so that behaviour modification can take place.

The info you found is wrong. I am Norwegian, I know the rules.

I'm sure you appreciate that it's not easy to find information on these laws - I've been searching all afternoon and haven't found anything to support prong collars being 100% illegal in the countries mentioned. I'm not saying you are wrong, but the information is not readily available or easy to access.

Anyway - as per my previous post. Whether prongs are banned in places outside of VIC is quite irrelevant to the big picture.

Edited August 5, 2011 by huski

[sas]

Prong collars are legal to sell and buy, but not to use. Go figure. E-collars are allowed to be used by a few people with specialised training for training specific types of hunting dogs. So as good as banned.

The information I found stated that they are banned in official competition not for general use.

The info you found is wrong. I am Norwegian, I know the rules.

Perhaps you yourseld mis-understood the rules.